Transparent blue finish on Swamp Ash

[leftybill]

Hello all!  I like what I have been reading, and have come seeking expertise  :help:.  I have a solid Swamp Ash body on order and want to do a satin or glossy finish.  I previously stained and finished a maple neck with success, but have not worked with Swamp Ash.
I have been reading the Reranch tutorials which recommend an oil based grain filler as a start.
Then an alcohol based stain, followed by a laquer based sand and sealer in multiple applications as well as multiple clear coats of laquer.
My questions are as follows:
1. Does the color of the grain filler make much of a difference since it will take up the stain?  What would you recommend as a grain filler?
2. Is the laquer based sand and sealer my only or best choice, since I prefer to use the Min Wax wipe on poly for my clear coats?
thanks  :blob7:

 

[USC-Blues]

Welcome to the board :icon_thumright: You're on the right path for this trans blue project.
I would recomend a search for either "Jacthehack" or "Tonar8353"  Tonar is one of the masters of refin work and has kindly answered many questions. In fact trans blue should be searched as I know it's been discussed in length with photos from both gentlemen.

Good Luck

SK

 

[-CB-]

swamp Ash body
satin or glossy finish. 
reading the Reranch tutorials
1. Does the color of the grain filler make much of a difference since it will take up the stain?  What would you recommend as a grain filler?
2. Is the laquer based sand and sealer my only or best choice, since I prefer to use the Min Wax wipe on poly for my clear coats?
thanks 

The main issue with swamp ash is the deep grain.  Grand canyon grain.  Filling that takes patience and some effort.  You can use oil or latex based fillers.  I'm tending to like the latex, but to each his own.  Both have a sort of "silica" filler to help fill things in.  Both will require three to four or more applications.  Those later applications will be on the deepest grain.  Keep in mind, thin coats of filler, like most things, are better.  Dries faster, dries harder, sands easier, etc etc. when its thin.

ReRanch has some good products, perhaps not the best in all applications, but good.  Keep in mind their tutorial is based for their own products that they sell, and most of the folks on their forum are describing the use of ReRanch products.

The color of the grain filler does matter a little.  Since you're going for a blue transparent finish, choose a dark, or black filler.  You dont want light filler.  Personally, I'd just go black, so the contrast is best under the transparent finish.

You can dye the body, using alcohol or MEK or acetone based dye.  I'd avoid water based dye.  Blue is a funny dye color.  There are a few compositions of blue dye that fall apart in wood when they're wicked through.  Warmoth themselves has had examples of this - where the blue dye turns teal colored in wood.  The effect, is call dichroic separation.  To test for this before hand, you can use a paper towel and dip it in the dye just a little and let the dye wick up the papers surface.  When it dries, if it gives you blue, green and amber (or brown) layers, its gonna do the same in your wood with a greenish effect as viewed.  If thats the dye you already have - its better to put it in the finish, rather than on the wood.  I THINK aniline dye wont do that - but check.

Generally, dont mix poly and lacquer components when doing a finish.  You can mix shellac under lacquer ok.  Shellac makes an excellent sealer (but not a good filler).    Then again, if you dye the wood, then start sealing/sanding over that, you're going to run into rub through problems.  So if you go the dye route, its best to just finish over the filled and dyed wood.

I'm sure others will have more to add.

 

[Tonar8352]

Check my posts and you will find a step-by-step finishing schedule including pictures for a blue transparent finish on Swamp Ash. 

 

[jackthehack]

Check my posts and you will find a step-by-step finishing schedule including pictures for a blue transparent finish on Swamp Ash. 
[/quote

Mine, too

 

[leftybill]

CB, thanks for the excellent reply.  I have a few more questions based on your reply.  :help:  
Could you tell me where I could purchase a black grain filler?  I believe there is currently over one month wait on the product from Steward MacDonald.
If I choose the PolyU route, what could I use as a "leveler" in place of the sand & sealer that Reranch recommends?  (Do I even need a leveler, since the Reranch tutorials are geared for laquer?)
As for the blue dye, are you suggesting to mix it in to the finish coat like the PolyU?
Since the blue dye tends to separate as you have explained, would colors such as orange or green have the same tendencies? ???
thanks

 

[-CB-]

StewMac.com has black grain filler... dunno about the wait.  Maybe luthiersmercantile.com has it...

Only some blue dye has separation, I know there are some that dont. 

Your BEST bet is to get some clear lacquer, dye it with blue dye, and then apply that as a transparent base followed by clear coats.

Check out Tonar's stuff...

 

[leftybill]

Thanks again.  I was able to talk with someone that was very knowledgeable about finishing at a local woodworking supply shop.  I feel that I can now under take this project.  :rock-on:
He emphasized to test every step on scraps of wood before applying it to the body.  He has also mentioned that often a finish like laquer will add an amber hue over the transparent blue and may turn out to be green.  For the final coat, he suggested a clear acrylic spray.
I did order the transparent blue as well as the transparent orange from Reranch and will test them both out and see what I prefer more.  This supply shop had the grain filler that I was looking for.
I still have not been able to find the finishes that you refer to in the search category.  ???  I have tried "transparent blue" and "transparent finish" without the hits.
thanks

 

[Tonar8352]

Since I can’t figure out how to inset the link to the original post I’ll put the pictures up for you.

I use Water White Lacquers, which do not yellow as badly so the color stays fairly true.  Acrylic Lacquers are truly non-yellowing but personally I use McFadden’s Lacquers.

Here you go, step-by-step.

Mek dye from LM.

Noticed the open grain after it is stained.

Here it is after two wash coats of lacquer and I sand it lightly with a worn out 3M 320 sanding sponge.  I make sure to get all the sanding dust off with an air gun.

I use Jasco oil base paste wood filler and tint it with blue color in oil tint.  You can probably get it from Stew-Mac.

Here it is mixed.

Here it is after the past filler and ready for clear finish.  The big thing is to make sure you get it well sealed with your wash coats before you put on the filler no matter if its blue or black.  If you do not get it sealed well then the paste filler will stain the wood.  Notice how much richer the color is after the filler.

You can make whatever product work as long as you follow this schedule.  Good luck!

 

[leftybill]

Tonar, thank you, that is amazing ccasion14:
So you are adding the filler AFTER the wash coats!?!  I was advised to add the filler first and then preferably a spray on dye followed with a clear coat.
  I guess there is more than one way to do it. 
thanks

 

[Mor Paul]

What about that chunk of blue alder?
And I still love how that piece looks.

 

[Tonar8352]

I was advised to add the filler first and then preferably a spray on dye followed with a clear coat.

If you do it that way your dye will not take as strong since the filler also has some sealing effect to the wood so the dye will not penetrate as well.  If you do your filler last your grain will really show well which is what you want with a blue finish on swamp ash.  

 

[leftybill]

OK I see. 
Is there anything in an aerosol can that you would recommend as a sealer?  I do really want to go the route of renting a sprayer.
thanks again

 

[leftybill]

Sorry, I do not want to have to rent a sprayer.

 

[Tonar8352]

What materials are you planning on using?  Maybe we can figures out a finish schedule for you based on your materials.

 

[blue313]

Sorry, I do not want to have to rent a sprayer.

Preval is the way then.  They sell them in a lot of places.

http://www.prevalspraygun.com/howto.htm

 

[leftybill]

As of now, I have Behlen Pore-O-Pac Grain filler in natural finish.  I will be adding an ivory black oil color to this.  Aside from this, I have the Reranch transparent blue and transparent orange aerosol's on order.  Obviously, the body wood is Swamp Ash (also on order).

 

[leftybill]

Tonar, right now I have a Behlen Pore-O Pac natural grain filler which is a polymerized linseed oil.  In addition, I have a tube of ivory black oil color to mix into the grain filler.
I have ordered the Reranch translucent blue as well as the translucent orange as my stain choices.  I would like to go with blue, but if orange looks better on my test scraps, I may go with that. 
Would the Color tone Aerosol lacquer be a good choice?
thanks

 

[Tonar8352]

The color tone will be like using a shading lacquer.  It should work.  I suggest that you try using blue dye on the wood.  Sealing it with 2 coats of Zinsser seal coat and then filling it with the black filler.  If you feel that the blue needs to be enhance you can shoot the transparent blue over that and then add you clear finishes over that.

The best thing is to do a couple of sample boards to see what will give you the results you are after.

 

[leftybill]

According to Behlen's instructions, they want a sealer coat on the wood prior to the filling.  I guess that this is to keep the filler from staining the wood.  You are basically telling me to use the blue transparent dye as a filler?