Titanium Tremolo assembly????

[Superbeast520]

  Anyone ever use one of these titanium trem assemblies??? 

Just wanted some feedback on wether or not it makes as big a difference as it claims. ......Its hella expensive, but if the tone is way better .....it may be a good investment...

http://www.detempleguitars.com/temp/CATALOG_ITEMS/Titanium.php

 

[back2thefutre]

From the videos I've seen on youtube, titanium sounds better. But, brass blocks sound great too and are 10x cheaper.

 

[Tonar8352]

I use the blocks on all my Strat but with vintage saddles.  They live up to the hype.  I use DeTemple.

 

[DangerousR6]

Seems to me that the Ti block would make a strat more tinnier than they already are. Because the Ti is lighter you are loosing mass from the bridge, thus possibly resulting in a brighter tone, the Floyd users such as myself go the other direction and get the heavier meatier bell brass blocks.... :dontknow:

 

[Superbeast520]

Yeah, I know the price is pretty crazy...Callaham has a nice Trem and probably the one I'll go with, in particular because they offer a narrow string spaced model for use with humbuckers..but its probably as good as you can get in the vintage style dept. without going the Titanium route.....

My plans are to build a fairly plain looking strat with performance upgrades....like:
the Callaham Trem
Gibson Burstbucker Pro Humbucker in the Bridge position for Classic Rock and Heavy stuff,
Fender Texas Special single coils in the Neck and middle positions for bluesy playing,
Steinberger Gearless tuners to help with tuning Stability...
Chambered Mahogany Body with Flame maple top to really bring out the tones of the Gibson and Fender pickups, along with
an all  Maple neck with Stainless steel frets, covered in Nitro satin,.to again enhance the tones...
all done in plain old Gloss Black...just to keep it looking ordinary and Strat like. (but secretly Badass!!!..hehehe)

 

[Superbeast520]

Hey Tonar, is it true then that it only comes with Vintage string spacing ?.....Thats really the only sticking point I have with it as Im putting the Humbucker in the bridge and I want the strings to line up over the pole pieces.....I see I can buy just the block as an upgrade, I thought the saddles would also be neccesary to enhance the tone???

 

[NLD09]

Seems to me that the Ti block would make a strat more tinnier than they already are. Because the Ti is lighter you are loosing mass from the bridge, thus possibly resulting in a brighter tone, the Floyd users such as myself go the other direction and get the heavier meatier bell brass blocks.... :dontknow:

mass, weight, and density are all related but vary immensely. I used to be heavy into brass instruments when I was in band and a friend of mine had a titanium mouthpiece that I tried playing through. My sound was silky smooth and everything I played seemed to work better. It was a lot lighter than my stainless steel mouthpiece which had an extra weight ring on it (similar in theory to adding a larger sustain block on a tremolo). Essentially density is all that matter in regards to metal. When using a titanium mouthpiece the metal, being more dense, created more spontaneous vibrations throughout the mouthpiece which translated to a smoother tone through the instrument. I dont see why strings would be any different.

However, the denseness of titanium would probably make the tone a bit brighter, but i would imagine sustain would be much better.

 

[DangerousR6]

Seems to me that the Ti block would make a strat more tinnier than they already are. Because the Ti is lighter you are loosing mass from the bridge, thus possibly resulting in a brighter tone, the Floyd users such as myself go the other direction and get the heavier meatier bell brass blocks.... :dontknow:

mass, weight, and density are all related but vary immensely. I used to be heavy into brass instruments when I was in band and a friend of mine had a titanium mouthpiece that I tried playing through. My sound was silky smooth and everything I played seemed to work better. It was a lot lighter than my stainless steel mouthpiece which had an extra weight ring on it (similar in theory to adding a larger sustain block on a tremolo). Essentially density is all that matter in regards to metal. When using a titanium mouthpiece the metal, being more dense, created more spontaneous vibrations throughout the mouthpiece which translated to a smoother tone through the instrument. I dont see why strings would be any different.

However, the denseness of titanium would probably make the tone a bit brighter, but i would imagine sustain would be much better.

Density = mass /  volume, which is based on a measurement of 1 cubic meter of water which equals 1000kg/m3 or 62.4 lbs/cu. ft

Thus the SG(specific gravity) of Titanium is 4.507 multiply that by 62.4 and we get 281.2lbs/cu. ft
The SG of brass is 8.430 x 62.4 = 542.9 lbs/cu. ft
The SG of steel is 7.85 x 62.4 = 489.4 lbs/cu ft

So as I said, Titanium isn't as dense as steel or brass.. :icon_biggrin:

 

[NLD09]

ok you win

 

[DangerousR6]

ok you win

 

[Schlieren]

I wonder if titanium, being an element rather than an alloy, has a crystalline structure such to give it musical properties above and beyond steel or brass (same goes for zinc i guess)

sounds like snake oil to me but ill as my metallurgist friend!

 

[DangerousR6]

I wonder if titanium, being an element rather than an alloy, has a crystalline structure such to give it musical properties above and beyond steel or brass (same goes for zinc i guess)

sounds like snake oil to me but ill as my metallurgist friend!

Although it is an ellement, titanium in it's purest form is only as strong as some steels. Titanium is often alloyed with aluminium (to refine grain size), vanadium, copper (to harden), iron, manganese, molybdenum, and with other metals for titanium mill products (sheet, plate, bar, wire, forgings, castings).

It also makes some cool ass guitar picks, I know cause I've made several of them....It has a very unique effect on the strings... :icon_biggrin:

 

[Tonar8352]

Here is my experience with using the DeTemple assemblies.  I used Callaham trem units exclusively from about 2000 until last year when I tried the DeTemple.  The first one I used was a complete DeTemple unit, which I took the saddles off and gave to a good friend and replaced then with a set of 54 saddles.  I did not like the fact that DeTemple did not send a spring claw and springs and I had to use Callaham for those items.

The impact on the guitar was very much as described on his website. I use 11’s on the guitar and many people that play it think it is strung with 10’s.  I have no idea how it is possible but it is true.  The next thing I noticed is the tuning stability and accuracy is better than any Strat I had used prior to this.  

What I do now is order the block from DeTemple and then I get the plate, claw, arm, and springs from Callaham. I think my total cost for this setup is $342.65. I add my own saddles and I get the same exact results. I will use this on all my own personal guitars and recommend to anyone that is willing to spend the extra for their guitars

My friend did not like the Titanium Saddles after he A/B them with the Callaham Saddles so he stayed with the Callaham Saddles.  I also know of another well know player that used them on a tired vintage Strat that brought it to life so I think some guitars benefit from them.  I prefer the old style vintage Fender Steel pressed saddles.

I cannot answer your string spacing questions so you may want to check with DeTemple on that.  They are pretty good about answering emails.

The bottom line for me is I will continue to use the Titanium Blocks.

 

[DangerousR6]

Here is my experience with using the DeTemple assemblies.  I used Callaham trem units exclusively from about 2000 until last year when I tried the DeTemple.  The first one I used was a complete DeTemple unit, which I took the saddles off and gave to a good friend and replaced then with a set of 54 saddles.  I did not like the fact that DeTemple did not send a spring claw and springs and I had to use Callaham for those items.

The impact on the guitar was very much as described on his website. I use 11’s on the guitar and many people that play it think it is strung with 10’s.  I have no idea how it is possible but it is true.  The next thing I noticed is the tuning stability and accuracy is better than any Strat I had used prior to this.  

What I do now is order the block from DeTemple and then I get the plate, claw, arm, and springs from Callaham. I think my total cost for this setup is $342.65. I add my own saddles and I get the same exact results. I will use this on all my own personal guitars and recommend to anyone that is willing to spend the extra for their guitars

My friend did not like the Titanium Saddles after he A/B them with the Callaham Saddles so he stayed with the Callaham Saddles.  I also know of another well know player that used them on a tired vintage Strat that brought it to life so I think some guitars benefit from them.  I prefer the old style vintage Fender Steel pressed saddles.

I cannot answer your string spacing questions so you may want to check with DeTemple on that.  They are pretty good about answering emails.

The bottom line for me is I will continue to use the Titanium Blocks.

The difference may be in the fact that the strat style bridges the strings run thru the block vs. the Floyd style where the strings aren't running thru the block...But there are Ti blocks for the Floyds as well, so it may just all together be something in the composition of Ti that renders itself as a tonal enhancement... :dontknow:

 

[Schlieren]

here's what my friend had to say

Crystal structures of the metals mentioned:
18/8 (300-series) stainless is an austenitic steel and therefore has a face-centered cubic crystal structure

alpha-brass is Cu+Zn (I don't know which brass specifically is used and therefore what the other additives are, but alpha-brass is very common) has a body-centered cubic crystal structure. It is single phase and in the unworked state has a microstructure of smaller or larger equiaxed grains depending on heat treatment cycle.

alpha-titanium has an HCP crystal structure, but the most common Ti-alloy is Ti-6Al-4V which is an "alpha-beta" alloy. the beta phase has a BCC crystal structure and so the microstructure contains both phases. Specifics as to the microstructure are dependent on specific content of additives and heat treatment cycle.

alpha-zinc also has an HCP crystal structure, but I don't know which zinc alloy you might be using specifically. However, the most common diecast zinc alloys are Zn-Al and are described in ASTM B240 with the most common being Zamak 2, 3, and 5. IIRC, this is still almost entirely HCP and section thickness during casting was the primary determinant in whether it had a primarily fine or coarse microstructure. (Fine-grained skin and coarse-grained bulk)

I'm not so sure it's an issue of the crystal structure per se, but possibly an issue relating to transmissibility due to different speeds of sound in the metal. Different metals will have different speeds of sound for both compression and shear waves. The generalized equation for this is V = sqrt(Cij/rho). Cij being the lattice constants and rho being density. The impedance is described by Z = V*rho. Fractional reflection at an interface is determined by R = [(Z2-Z1)/(Z2+Z1)]2. This means that steel-core bronze-wrapped wires are in general going to have worse transmissibility at the interface with light-metal tremolos (aluminum being the most common) than with those of transition metals. Titanium however has a larger elastic modulus and density than aluminum, and so has an impedance closer to that of both the steel and the bronze and therefore a better transmissibility. For nylon core, silver-plated copper-wrapped strings, similar should apply as both copper and silver are transition metals and fall into a somewhat different regime than aluminum. Now, the lattice constants are in fact partly related to crystal structure, but this is a a fairly complicated topic which I'm not going to get into. They may also be influenced by processing history. When something is worked it produces a preferred orientation for grains in the metal and this creates anisotropic lattice constants which therefore creates anisotropies in the speed of sound. So, it may also be as prosaic as whether the material was rolled into sheets or cast near-net into its present shape in terms of how well it transmits sounds from a given material.

well, that clears it all up

glad i could help
_________

 

[Death by Uberschall]

Maybe it has something to do with the resonant frequencies inherent to the type of metal used for the block?  :icon_scratch:

 

[Schlieren]

What I gathered from reading was that one would need to know the specific metallurgy to be able to answer with any sort of accuracy or precision, meaning not only the specific alloy used (since it reads like any of these metals are almost always alloyed and never used elementally), but also the method of creation (i.e. forged, die-cast, cold rolled, case hardened, &c.)

Some of that information for these products might be proprietary, so it appears we'll never know, except in direct A/B sound comparisons: good is good.

 

[Superbeast520]

Here is my experience with using the DeTemple assemblies.  I used Callaham trem units exclusively from about 2000 until last year when I tried the DeTemple.  The first one I used was a complete DeTemple unit, which I took the saddles off and gave to a good friend and replaced then with a set of 54 saddles.  I did not like the fact that DeTemple did not send a spring claw and springs and I had to use Callaham for those items.

The impact on the guitar was very much as described on his website. I use 11’s on the guitar and many people that play it think it is strung with 10’s.  I have no idea how it is possible but it is true.  The next thing I noticed is the tuning stability and accuracy is better than any Strat I had used prior to this.  

What I do now is order the block from DeTemple and then I get the plate, claw, arm, and springs from Callaham. I think my total cost for this setup is $342.65. I add my own saddles and I get the same exact results. I will use this on all my own personal guitars and recommend to anyone that is willing to spend the extra for their guitars

My friend did not like the Titanium Saddles after he A/B them with the Callaham Saddles so he stayed with the Callaham Saddles.  I also know of another well know player that used them on a tired vintage Strat that brought it to life so I think some guitars benefit from them.  I prefer the old style vintage Fender Steel pressed saddles.

I cannot answer your string spacing questions so you may want to check with DeTemple on that.  They are pretty good about answering emails.

The bottom line for me is I will continue to use the Titanium Blocks.

Thank you for that Tonar, sounds like I will be using a combo Callaham/DeTemple then....I can only imagine you have some of the best sounding guitars on the site...Nice!!   I appreciate the info being that you have hands on experience in particular...Thanks again... :icon_thumright:

 

[Superbeast520]

here's what my friend had to say

Crystal structures of the metals mentioned:
18/8 (300-series) stainless is an austenitic steel and therefore has a face-centered cubic crystal structure

alpha-brass is Cu+Zn (I don't know which brass specifically is used and therefore what the other additives are, but alpha-brass is very common) has a body-centered cubic crystal structure. It is single phase and in the unworked state has a microstructure of smaller or larger equiaxed grains depending on heat treatment cycle.

alpha-titanium has an HCP crystal structure, but the most common Ti-alloy is Ti-6Al-4V which is an "alpha-beta" alloy. the beta phase has a BCC crystal structure and so the microstructure contains both phases. Specifics as to the microstructure are dependent on specific content of additives and heat treatment cycle.

alpha-zinc also has an HCP crystal structure, but I don't know which zinc alloy you might be using specifically. However, the most common diecast zinc alloys are Zn-Al and are described in ASTM B240 with the most common being Zamak 2, 3, and 5. IIRC, this is still almost entirely HCP and section thickness during casting was the primary determinant in whether it had a primarily fine or coarse microstructure. (Fine-grained skin and coarse-grained bulk)

I'm not so sure it's an issue of the crystal structure per se, but possibly an issue relating to transmissibility due to different speeds of sound in the metal. Different metals will have different speeds of sound for both compression and shear waves. The generalized equation for this is V = sqrt(Cij/rho). Cij being the lattice constants and rho being density. The impedance is described by Z = V*rho. Fractional reflection at an interface is determined by R = [(Z2-Z1)/(Z2+Z1)]2. This means that steel-core bronze-wrapped wires are in general going to have worse transmissibility at the interface with light-metal tremolos (aluminum being the most common) than with those of transition metals. Titanium however has a larger elastic modulus and density than aluminum, and so has an impedance closer to that of both the steel and the bronze and therefore a better transmissibility. For nylon core, silver-plated copper-wrapped strings, similar should apply as both copper and silver are transition metals and fall into a somewhat different regime than aluminum. Now, the lattice constants are in fact partly related to crystal structure, but this is a a fairly complicated topic which I'm not going to get into. They may also be influenced by processing history. When something is worked it produces a preferred orientation for grains in the metal and this creates anisotropic lattice constants which therefore creates anisotropies in the speed of sound. So, it may also be as prosaic as whether the material was rolled into sheets or cast near-net into its present shape in terms of how well it transmits sounds from a given material.

well, that clears it all up

glad i could help
_________

Thank you Schlieren, some very interesting info for sure. Its kinda hard to knock true science,so very nice to understand in depth the factors at play. :icon_thumright: