Threaded inserts - installation this time - Done

[ezas]

I'm all set up (jigs/clamps) to drill my neck for 8/32 inserts. I'm using the inserts with the wood threads (though I do have inserts with outside machine screws as well.)

I've read the advice to use a double-nut to install the inserts and I understand how a double nut works but I can't picture in my mind how a double nut makes the insert twist in. How ever I do it, I will be using a drill press to turn the the inserts into the neck.

I have a feeling it would become obvious once I was doing it but you know how it is, you like to have everything straight in your mind before starting.

Thanks in advance

Edit: I have the inserts in both a coarse thread - about 3-4 threads on the insert, and a finer thread - about 5-6 threads. Pros & Cons? Toss a coin?

Also how much should I subtract from the insert size for the pilot hole. I seem to remember seeing a thread that said about 1/32. I have calipers and all drill sizes I might need in that range.

 

[Cagey]

Absolutely DO NOT use a drill press to turn the inserts in, unless you mean you're just going to use the chuck to line the insertion tool up and then turn the chuck by hand. But, even then I'd be skeptical. The inserts aren't going to go in easily. In fact, they fight pretty hard. You might need three or four hands to operate the quill and turn the chuck. Necks are made of hardwood, and an 8-32 insert is 1/4" in diameter with some pretty good-sized threads to cut into the wood.

I imagine the double nut trick works, but I think it would be working too hard. What I do is use the proper tool so I don't wreck a $300-$600 neck that may have already had finish/fret work done to it. That kind of thing can ruin your week.

The right tool is inexpensive, readily available and works well. I get them from McMaster-Carr, but I'm sure other places sell them. Thing is, they kinda require the right insert, so it may not work for you...

That's their part number 90016A009. It's a brass part, 8-32 inside thread, requires a 1/4" hole. They're only $8 or $9 for a bag of 25, so...

The insertion tool is called a "Power Driver"...

That's their part number 94110A120. They run about $9

You also need some good thread lube like beeswax, and very slow portable drill motor.

Use the drill press and a Forstner bit to make the holes for the inserts, and the driver chucked into the portable to thread the lubed inserts in. Be careful to keep enough downward pressure on the insert so the driver doesn't bounce out of the slots. It only takes a couple times doing that before the slots are ruined and you'll never get the insert in. You'll have to back it out and try a new one.

 

[SkuttleFunk]

I twist in my threaded inserts with a drill chuck every single time, and I've done loads of them. you turn the chuck with one hand, and apply pressure on the lever arm with the other. the key is to ensure you have the correct hole drilled - too loose and you don't have a solid catch, too tight and you'll crack the wood and/or insert.

use a dial caliper to verify you have the right hole size. when you drill the hole, install the insert before moving the part you're installing it into. this ensure you have exact alignment with the hole you just drilled

I did a step-by-step with images a couple years back. it's still here in the how to section ...

all the best,

R

 

[mayfly]

I've installed threaded inserts on 5 necks with the insertion tool in a drill press chuck, rotating the chuck by hand.  Worked well for me, was not that hard to turn.

 

[ezas]

I twist in my threaded inserts with a drill chuck every single time, and I've done loads of them. you turn the chuck with one hand, and apply pressure on the lever arm with the other. the key is to ensure you have the correct hole drilled - too loose and you don't have a solid catch, too tight and you'll crack the wood and/or insert.

use a dial caliper to verify you have the right hole size. when you drill the hole, install the insert before moving the part you're installing it into. this ensure you have exact alignment with the hole you just drilled

I did a step-by-step with images a couple years back. it's still here in the how to section ...

all the best,

R

I've seen the threads where people report good results using the double nut method. I absolutely meant using the drill chuck by hand.

I'm still hazy on pilot hole sizing though since it's pretty critical in hard maple as has been pointed out. I have calipers so I can measure the inserts. Should I measure between the threads and use that measurement for the hole?

 

[Cagey]

I've installed threaded inserts on 5 necks with the insertion tool in a drill press chuck, rotating the chuck by hand.  Worked well for me, was not that hard to turn.

Well, my chuck doesn't turn that easily, but the more I think about it, that could be because I've always got it geared way down. I rarely run the thing much more than 700 RPM.

 

[ezas]

The barrel of the insert mic's out at ~.246 and a 1/4 drill bit at ~.246. Just about everything I can find says 1/4" for 8/32 inserts.

I'm really happy with how my neck is jigged up now.  I have it clamped up with the face dead flat/perpendicular to the drill bit and lined up by using the largest bit that would in the pilot holes that warmoth drills.

I'll take some pictures of how I did it. How I accounted for the radius of the neck, and getting the face level without use of a vice.

 

[ezas]

Just finished the inserts. I used a 1/4" hole and used the inserts with the finer thread pitch. I used dove soap on the threads

It went really smoothly with no surprises. It did not take extensive force or grip to make them thread in using the drill press chuck. They went in easier than I thought they would but not so easy that I'm worried about them.

I drilled my pilot holes in steps using three sizes to go from the Warmoth pilot holes to the 1/4" size so I feel like they are lined up really well with the original location.

The holes are slight counter sunk and the insert slightly counter sunk to match. They came out a little more countersunk than I intended but I can see no downside to that.

I'm really happy with how it turned out and the next one will go much faster. While it took a long time to align and jig (and stress about the unknown) I'm glad I did it and will be doing the same thing on my other build.

 

[Cagey]

I'm glad that all worked out for you.

And yeah, once you do one, you want to do 'em all. The neck is just so much easier to deal with then. Plus, it's a tighter joint. That can only be a Good Thing.

That's usually about a $50 job, so it's real easy to justify an X/Y cross slide vise to hold the neck on the press stage. I have one like this...

That one's at Harbor Freight for $89, but I'm pretty sure I only paid $50 for mine. Makes it real easy to move the neck around and line up the holes, since you only have to mount the neck once. You clamp the neck in, then you can index it in both directions to hit all four holes. Each axis locks in place, so you don't have to worry about it shifting on you while you change bits or whatever.

 

[baskruit]

Just finished the inserts.

Pics or it doesn't exist.

 

[swarfrat]

The nifty driver is a big help, but it still doesn't help with alignment. Threading operations on the drill press are never done under power unless you have CNC control of the spindle (not just XY) or you have one of the fancy schmancy clutches they sell for threading under power / feed pressure. Use the drill press by all means, just don't turn it on.

 

[Ty]

When I coowned Mercurio Guitars and Roxy Guitar finish we applied all our inserts with a drill press. We made sure the gears/pully's were on its lowest speed "say tapping speed" and used a foot pedal switch to bump the drill press.  Of course the neck was in a custum fixture on a crossslide table to  Make sure it was parallel to the piece.

We also applied a dab of epoxy for reassurance in the event the inserts tried to pull themselves up when you torqued the machine screws down

We use a similar technique here at Warmoth.

Back in 2003 Grizzly used to sell a nice little tapping machine that pretty much was a   hand crank, in a threaded collar and a Jacobs chuck on the other end. This worked beautifully for a small run such as the members in this forum, but not great in a production setting.

So the key in using a drill press is...  Flat table,good fixture to hold your work parallel to the table, lowest speed setting on drill press, a dab of epoxy and most importantly a momentary foot switch.

Some may ask about the epoxy getting into the threads of the inserts. Yes sometimes they did and we simply tapped the ones that needed cleaning.

Hope this helps and sorry I don't post more on topics, I don't usually have time with finishing all those beautiful bodies and necks at Warmoth,and on my time off I'm in my man cave inventing and designing gadgets. I'm posting tonight because I'm taking a vacation from the family relaxing in a nice hotel!

Tack Care
Ty

 

[anorakDan]

I'm glad that all worked out for you.

And yeah, once you do one, you want to do 'em all. The neck is just so much easier to deal with then. Plus, it's a tighter joint. That can only be a Good Thing.

That's usually about a $50 job, so it's real easy to justify an X/Y cross slide vise to hold the neck on the press stage. I have one like this...

That one's at Harbor Freight for $89, but I'm pretty sure I only paid $50 for mine. Makes it real easy to move the neck around and line up the holes, since you only have to mount the neck once. You clamp the neck in, then you can index it in both directions to hit all four holes. Each axis locks in place, so you don't have to worry about it shifting on you while you change bits or whatever.

Dang, Cagey, that is a great vice! Now I have TAS!

 

[Nightclub Dwight]

Hope this helps and sorry I don't post more on topics, I don't usually have time with finishing all those beautiful bodies and necks at Warmoth,and on my time off I'm in my man cave inventing and designing gadgets. I'm posting tonight because I'm taking a vacation from the family relaxing in a nice hotel!

Tack Care
Ty

Thanks for the great info.  We appreciate your insight, feel free to drop in whenever you have time.  Thanks!

 

[ezas]

Here is  a picture of the finished job and a picture comparing three different 8/32" inserts. It's interesting how they differ in size and thread pitch. Looking at the picture I think I can see why they went in pretty easy. Look how sharp the threads are compared to the other two.

Last night I used the ones with the finest thread. And they went into a 1/4" hole pretty easily. But those came from a hardware store in LA so I sourced the brass ones today, the ones with the 'in-between' thread pitch. And those are the ones I'm going to use tonight so I bought a piece of oak to test with to get the best pilot hole size.

I'm doing my 2nd neck tonight and will take pictures of each step of how I did it and post them later.

But +1 on set up. I took a long time to make sure my table top drill press was level and that the table was level and square to the drill bit.  I mocked it up many times before coming up with how I did it.

 

[back2thefutre]

I dream at night that Warmoth will install these. Im to dumb to do it myself :binkybaby: :binkybaby: :binkybaby: