The reason for tone quality............ A theory

[rhythm]

So I guess this thread is just a big troll, and you'll continue shifting gears as necessary?

Hey man, I am not trying to win something here I am just putting my argument across. I reckon the theory has something behind it so I am explaining it as best I can and I was actually just adding to what you said. I didnt say you were wrong about anything. The Formvar theory is from OC Duff. I just thought you were offering advise, I didnt think you were making a point for me to dispute. Am I irritating you or something? Nobody on here has to agree with me, I am just talking. Its a guitar builders forum.

 

[rhythm]

Maybe Fender and Gibson, as in any fledgling industry at the time of start up would have probably made components in house, especially Fender with 6 in line tuners had no other company before them (maybe some Fender or Gibson historians on here will prove me wrong).

You really don't know a whole lot, huh? :help:

http://www.kluson.com/

Fair kop. But I wast sure, which is why I wrote the bit in the brackets......................... I get the impression that some people on here dont want to shoot the theory down but want to shoot me down. Maybe if I was over 50 with a few thousand posts to my name people might be more comfortable listening to my arguement. As it is I dont think some people want to take a newbie seriously but hey, thats only a theory!  :icon_thumright:

 

[tfarny]

Don't get all bent out of shape, man. All the previous posts have been attacking your theory very directly and convincingly. People used both physics arguments and arguments from experience. You said at the start "good tone" by which people generally think you mean "vintage tone". Then you said you don't care about vintage tone, so in other words, what kind of tone do you mean by "good tone"? My theory is that if there were a big secret grand magic to 'great tone' it wouldn't be a secret at all.

Put some good pickups in your guitar, get the action and intonation and pickup height right, and go amp shopping if you want good tone - that's my great secret theory.

 

[po_0784]

(sorry for the english again, there should be a french warmoth forum around  :dontknow

Can't resist replying to this thread  :icon_tongue:

As a guitar teacher, I think I encountered so many different guitars... from the inexpensive (100$) to the overpriced (5000$). In the studio, I recorded with many different guitars. To me, the only thing I really care about is fonctionnality. Im really ANALYTIC about the setup on my guitars. Of course, it affects directly my playing. I do care a lot about pickups, frets, bridge, tuners, shape of the neck, etc. But, those are all aspects of how well an instrument plays and what style it can do.

By listening to a record, I dont see how someone can say :"hey thats a 3lbs 1piece alder body from 64". I saw an interesting website the other day which have sounds samples of different single coils pickup. I mean, maybe im deaf. But holy crap, I cannot tell which one is the "best". They just sounds different thats about it. The way someone play just get SO above the gear factor. And even if someone can make the difference between two strat body on a record, I dont think I would like to write music for this kind of person!

I can't recognize the difference between different single coils if they are too close sounding. But I do recognize the difference between Billie Joe Armstrong and Guthrie Govan  :icon_thumright:. I mean, why bother about something people can't discern!?!

The very best player in my area is a guy playing a "fender stratocaster". Most people who attends his shows are guitar freaks. At the end of the night, those gear junkies always go ask him about his guitar ("WoooAH dude, your tone is so amazing, is it a Custom chop closet classic super relic hot rod vintage 63 model?"). The answer:

"Squier bullet body (plywood), fender japanese neck, texas special pickups, fender squier bridge tuners".    :laughing7:
People usually make a face like that  ???  . Totally hilarious! (even me I DID haha!)

But maybe im just too much into playing and not that much into gear. That may change with time who knows? At the guitar shop where I work, we all make funny jokes about gear. There always people coming to give you their take on ultimate tone... People usually reads so much on the internet, they think that the best stuff is always the most expansive one.

I like John Suhr guitars. They are great... Plain maple neck and basswood body? 5000$? No thanks, already got an RG7 with the exact same wood. But its a flame maple neck  :toothy10: which give you more of those 1309 hz frequencies  :laughing11:. Nah its just cute!  :icon_thumright:

(Keep this thread fun people hehe)

 

[po_0784]

Oh my #$% , so many mistakes in my reply, If only I could write decent english  :sad1: lol

 

[rhythm]

Don't get all bent out of shape, man. All the previous posts have been attacking your theory very directly and convincingly. People used both physics arguments and arguments from experience. You said at the start "good tone" by which people generally think you mean "vintage tone". Then you said you don't care about vintage tone, so in other words, what kind of tone do you mean by "good tone"? My theory is that if there were a big secret grand magic to 'great tone' it wouldn't be a secret at all.

Put some good pickups in your guitar, get the action and intonation and pickup height right, and go amp shopping if you want good tone - that's my great secret theory.

By good tone I just mean allowing whatever character is in the pickups to be expressed in the best possible way. Bent out of shape? I just dont think too many people think much of the theory. I am speaking from the experience of Les, not my own, I just agree with him. People arguing the other side doesnt bent me out of shape at all. I dont mind debate at all even if I am proven wrong. I am a PhD student, as are you Dr. Tfarny if my memory is correct........... post doc now? So I am used to people proving me wrong pretty much on a daily basis (unfortunatly for my study).

But I do think it is a little lame when just putting an argument forward for something makes people try and pick me appart for small stuff like spelling or trolling (I dont actually know what trolling is, but presume its something negative).

Anyway, I do agree that aggro is a little pointless on this board and frankly, generally people on here are super cool even the guys that on here today that dont agree with me have been really helpful in the past, Jack especially. Still, I didnt have a go at anyone in this thread. I directly disagreed with CB, but that is it.

Something totally unrealated though......... Tfarny, what was your study on? Which Uni/Col? Mine is predictive climate modelling.

 

[Mor Paul]

po_0784, your English is fine. There's plenty of people here who didn't learn English as a first language.

Rhythm, I was just having fun with the spelling thing. I didn't even find them at first. (I make plenty of mistakes, actually). Mr. Tone's theory is interesting, and don't worry about the post counts. I'm pretty new here, and the guys here were helpful from the start. A lot of them enjoy hearing tone talk.

 

[rhythm]

(sorry for the english again, there should be a french warmoth forum around  :dontknow

Can't resist replying to this thread  :icon_tongue:

As a guitar teacher, I think I encountered so many different guitars... from the inexpensive (100$) to the overpriced (5000$). In the studio, I recorded with many different guitars. To me, the only thing I really care about is fonctionnality. Im really ANALYTIC about the setup on my guitars. Of course, it affects directly my playing. I do care a lot about pickups, frets, bridge, tuners, shape of the neck, etc. But, those are all aspects of how well an instrument plays and what style it can do.

By listening to a record, I dont see how someone can say :"hey thats a 3lbs 1piece alder body from 64". I saw an interesting website the other day which have sounds samples of different single coils pickup. I mean, maybe im deaf. But holy crap, I cannot tell which one is the "best". They just sounds different thats about it. The way someone play just get SO above the gear factor. And even if someone can make the difference between two strat body on a record, I dont think I would like to write music for this kind of person!

I can't recognize the difference between different single coils if they are too close sounding. But I do recognize the difference between Billie Joe Armstrong and Guthrie Govan  :icon_thumright:. I mean, why bother about something people can't discern!?!

The very best player in my area is a guy playing a "fender stratocaster". Most people who attends his shows are guitar freaks. At the end of the night, those gear junkies always go ask him about his guitar ("WoooAH dude, your tone is so amazing, is it a Custom chop closet classic super relic hot rod vintage 63 model?"). The answer:

"Squier bullet body (plywood), fender japanese neck, texas special pickups, fender squier bridge tuners".    :laughing7:
People usually make a face like that  ???  . Totally hilarious! (even me I DID haha!)

But maybe im just too much into playing and not that much into gear. That may change with time who knows? At the guitar shop where I work, we all make funny jokes about gear. There always people coming to give you their take on ultimate tone... People usually reads so much on the internet, they think that the best stuff is always the most expansive one.

I like John Suhr guitars. They are great... Plain maple neck and basswood body? 5000$? No thanks, already got an RG7 with the exact same wood. But its a flame maple neck  :toothy10: which give you more of those 1309 hz frequencies  :laughing11:. Nah its just cute!  :icon_thumright:

(Keep this thread fun people hehe)

By the way, Les also told me that Chris Rea uses a Squier Strat with two Wilkinson humbuckers for recording and playing at home  :laughing7:.................. Sounds like your guy with his Squier. Its true, nothing can compare to playing well.

 

[jackthehack]

So I guess this thread is just a big troll, and you'll continue shifting gears as necessary?

Hey man, I am not trying to win something here I am just putting my argument across. I reckon the theory has something behind it so I am explaining it as best I can and I was actually just adding to what you said. I didnt say you were wrong about anything. The Formvar theory is from OC Duff. I just thought you were offering advise, I didnt think you were making a point for me to dispute. Am I irritating you or something? Nobody on here has to agree with me, I am just talking. Its a guitar builders forum.

It's not an argument; it's the re-expression of what started out as one guy you talked to's opinion, which has no real basis in fact or physics (all metal components being made of same material for "resonance") to which you've added additional misguided statements/opinions which in turn have no basis in fact.

Formvar going "brittle" would have NO effect on the electro-magnetic properties of a pickup, other than make it more liable to get a break/short when handling it.

 

[po_0784]

Thks Max for the support lol! Since everyone in my province speak french, there's no way to practice except the internet.

Rhythm, I always find every theory interesting. As I said, I may just not care for now about the "tone" of my guitar, but maybe I will do later. Wish you the best with your warmoth project! Currently waiting for my first warmoth project myself :OD. A kind of "sparepartsocaster" as Ive read on the forum hehe.

I just think as musicians, we should care more about playing than gear. Sounds stupid to say that here, its a Custom guitar website! lol

To the guy who put this out :"vintage tone" VS "great tone" ... that really confused me!  :icon_thumright:. It just made me thinke that I absolutely got no idea of what is a "great tone"

I play an Rg7 prestige with EMG707 thru a Peavey JSX head...got a G major in the effect loop. I think it sounds great! I agree with the guy who talked about amps  :redflag:. I DO really like my amp. And anything else sounds like @#$ to me. Maybe its just SO much easier to rate differents amp sounds rather than differents guitar sounds. Its just so different from one to another.

Texas special pus VS Custom Shop Fat 50...... JSX head Vs Fender Twin          which one will be easier to find on a blind test  :icon_jokercolor:?

 

[rhythm]

po_0784, your English is fine. There's plenty of people here who didn't learn English as a first language.

Rhythm, I was just having fun with the spelling thing. I didn't even find them at first. (I make plenty of mistakes, actually). Mr. Tone's theory is interesting, and don't worry about the post counts. I'm pretty new here, and the guys here were helpful from the start. A lot of them enjoy hearing tone talk.

Hey Max, no worries. I am actually a little sorry you felt the need to say you were just messing around. Its really no big deal at all. I know that a big problem on forums and a major pain on text messages (just ask my girlfriend) on phones is that you can never tell how people mean what they write because............. oh no, here is that word again........... you cant hear the .......sigh..............tone....(not related to hardware  :doh: ).....sigh....... in their voice. If I was where you are now, and you were old enough, I would buy you a beer to say no worries. Might even ruffle your hair and give you a light jab in the arm  ccasion14:

And yeah Po............ Your words made sense. Good point.

 

[rhythm]

So I guess this thread is just a big troll, and you'll continue shifting gears as necessary?

Hey man, I am not trying to win something here I am just putting my argument across. I reckon the theory has something behind it so I am explaining it as best I can and I was actually just adding to what you said. I didnt say you were wrong about anything. The Formvar theory is from OC Duff. I just thought you were offering advise, I didnt think you were making a point for me to dispute. Am I irritating you or something? Nobody on here has to agree with me, I am just talking. Its a guitar builders forum.

It's not an argument; it's the re-expression of what started out as one guy you talked to's opinion, which has no real basis in fact or physics (all metal components being made of same material for "resonance") to which you've added additional misguided statements/opinions which in turn have no basis in fact.

Formvar going "brittle" would have NO effect on the electro-magnetic properties of a pickup, other than make it more liable to get a break/short when handling it.

Ok, Jack I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The difference is that you are telling me I am wrong (fact) and I am telling you what I think (theory). Les has a crazy amount of experience with all things guitar and what he said makes sense to me (fair enough), it doesnt with you (fair enough).

haha, I love how serious we are all getting about this. Talk of guitar tone only second in controversy to middle east politics. I surrender  :redflag:

Jack, I'd buy you a beer too.  ccasion14:

 

[rhythm]

Oh, also............. what is trolling?  ???

 

[GoDrex]

don't buy Max any beer - he's only 13 - give him a few years

trolling is intentionally making posts designed to stir shit up - not for any genuine intention of having a discussion. I think Jack's radar went off when you made this huge post about tone and then said you weren't going for vintage tone, just the styling. Seemed a little screwy I guess.

 

[Mor Paul]

Only somewhat related, but...
So, I've been playing trumpet for a few years. I'm the only one in my school. (actually, since a new year is starting up, there *may* be another..)
Trumpets make their sounds using vibration of the instrument, with the valves changing the sections of the instrument that vibrates and has air go through it.
Since I began, I've been playing used brass trumpets. I'm ready to upgrade to a silver/nickel trumpet. The silver is just plating, from what I've read. I feel that must mean that the quality of the metals, rather than them all being the same has more to do with tone. Also, trumpets have many different metals in them, so I don't think that metals that cancel out sounds would be used in pro-quality instrument, such as the Bach Stradivarius, which I am hoping to get sometime. It plays wonderfully.

And tone being second to middle eastern politics? No way. Why do you think there's all the debate? It's because people have different ideas of good tone. That's it.

Oh, and I'm 15. 16 in December.

 

[GoDrex]

ooops - sorry. Got you confused with Wanna I guess. :tard:

 

[rhythm]

don't buy Max any beer - he's only 13 - give him a few years

trolling is intentionally making posts designed to stir shite up - not for any genuine intention of having a discussion. I think Jack's radar went off when you made this huge post about tone and then said you weren't going for vintage tone, just the styling. Seemed a little screwy I guess.

Ok, he can have a coke (decaf coke).

Trolling............... ah. Not my intention at all and I dont know how my post made anyone think that. I just got in from seeing Les and thought it was the most interesting thing I had heard on tone talk in a while. Thought I would share. Good tone is just good tone to me. Good guitars built then, good guitars built now. I was just talking about an instrument being all it could be.......................... Would you not put vintage tone in the category of character rather than an issue of quality? You could get a master built custom shop strat today that might have just as much tonal quality (and perhaps more build quality) as an original 50's, but you might want the 50's because of character? Who knows?

 

[nathan a]

Hmm this is pretty interesting. I would probably just say that great tone comes from the hands/pickups/amp, and a player's ability to control playing dynamics. But that's me. I appreciate your taking the time to write that whole theory out, it sounds like the sorta thing where if Les got famous, a zillion kids would start searching for matched hardware sets  :laughing7:

Hey Max I thought you were 13, too  :doh:

 

[Mor Paul]

Hey, there's nothing like real Coke. Not diet, not caffeine  free, and definitely not Pepsi.

 

[rhythm]

Hey, there's nothing like real Coke. Not diet, not caffeine  free, and definitely not Pepsi.

Diet for me, I am sweet enough.

Anywho, I think I am going to try this matched hardware thing. It defo cant hurt the tone, whoever is right. It actuall isnt a big change from my original plans anyway. I always isnteded to go all origianl Fender hardware, but I was going to get Gotoh height adjustable Klusons so I could do away with string trees as I have some nice birdeyes on my headstock that I wanted to be clear. Its also a little less of a headache getting the Fender tuners as the Gotoh height adjustable locking Klusons in gold are super hard to find and $130. I already have the chrome versions on my squier and I love em.

I also like the Safeti-Post feature on the Fenders, I have drawn blood one or twice.