The Copper-ish-caster

[ragamuffin]

Topic modified:

This will be a bit of a mix between a "DIY Finish" and a "Work-in-Progress" thread.

I love my recently finished partscaster project http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=23367.msg343485#msg343485
But I've decided that I want to add a third pickup, and what better time to give it an awesome paint job?!?  :icon_thumright: I originally wanted to have a copper finish, but I wanted to get a cheap used body and could find one in copper and the specs I wanted. Then I discover some really sweet patinated metal finishes.

These two guitars are my finish inspirations:

This one from Scott Walker guitars


And this one from Jooky Guitar Emporium


Here's my quickie photoshop mockup of how I want my guitar to look: (Be nice! lol)


I'll be using copper metal coating, tiffany green patina, and finishing in gloss nitro. Process is: spraying the metal coating, attacking with the corrosive while it's still wet, and after letting it cure doing a heavy nitro finish polished to a shine.
http://www.sculptnouveau.com/

This is a test I did on a random piece of scrap wood. I brushed on the paint and applied the patina wet for simplicity's sake, but will be spraying it when I do the guitar.


The final product will have a thin, 5-hole matte black pickguard, different knobs, vintage style tuner buttons, and a few other small differences, but hey, this was a quickie.

I routed with a chisel and Dremel tool, as I don't own a router or drill press, and I don't care too much what things look like under the pickguard. I think I did a pretty decent job given my limited tool shed.


And now she's all sanded down and ready for the first coat of paint! I actually did a little more sanding in certain areas after this picture was taken.

 

[Great Ape]

Really? REALLY?? I don't get it; the guitars on that annoyingly cloy website look like junk to me, but I do see great potential in the copper/verdigris patina--as long as you don't let THOSE GUYS anywhere near your Tele!

 

[Day-mun]

NO kiddin', Great Ape! -"Jooky" only begins to describe their work! :doh: *puke*

 

[ragamuffin]

Really? REALLY?? I don't get it; the guitars on that annoyingly cloy website look like junk to me, but I do see great potential in the copper/verdigris patina--as long as you don't let THOSE GUYS anywhere near your Tele!

Lol! Yeah, I did mean it when I said "some" sweet finishes. A lot of them just look trashy

 

[ragamuffin]

Update: My first attempt at spraying the metal coating was disastrous. I used a Preval aerosol sprayer, which was the root of the problem). The paint came out horribly thick and uneven, with very little of the copper powder making it through. After a lot of sanding I've learned my lesson and will be renting a good quality HVLP sprayer. I had to order more paint, and after talking with someone at Sculpt Noveau, they recommended I use their formula that higher metal content (can be buffed to a shine and takes patina better when dry), and not using the gloss nitro, as it breathes and would allow for continuous oxidation. I also did a bit of research on how Scott Walker does it (maker of the first guitar picture)

New and improved finishing process:

-I'll be using their copper c metal coating, applying it in thin coats, allowing it to cure for a day, and then sanding/buffing to a shine.
-Applying the tiffany green patina around the edges of the guitar, using a mix of spraying and splattering, adding some steel wool dust for color variation.
-Waiting about 24 hours for the patina to take full effect, and sealing with a specialized poly.
-And using steel wool to sand down the patina from the edges and anywhere else I might want, and re-buffing the underlying metal to a shine to create a naturally worn/faux binding look.

Last of the parts have arrived:

Vintage-y style plate tuner buttons:


Some sweet looking bakelight knobs I found on ebay, and a switch tip and mounting ring that I sanded to a matte look:


And a cutomized bakelight pickguard from WD Music. Unfortunately the middle position rout is higher up than I expected, so I'll have to dig out some more wood.


Also got an electrosocket jack, which I polished up with a dremel to get rid of the satin metal look, and a .033 cap to test out

Paint will come in a day or two, and this sort of finish won't take long to cure, so I should be putting everything together soon! 

 

[Cagey]

You're not alone with the Preval experience. I tried it on two separate finishes and was sorely disappointed on both. Tossed what was left of the stuff. There's not enough pressure or flow to do anything beyond shooting something super thin. I can't imagine it would work with any kind of metallic or metal flake. I couldn't even get the things to shoot thinned out sander/filler.

It sounds like a good idea on the surface, but the reality is way off when it comes to practical use.

 

[Phaedrus]

Sounds really interesting! Really looking forward to see how it goes.

A funny idea came to my mind when you said that the gloss nitro breathes. If you do that it means that the older the guitar gets- the oxidation will spread. It will be an ever changing guitar! Kinda like a relic, only unnoticable accept by those who know how it looked a while back. I dunnu, sounds interesting.

Than again, it might affect the finish as a whole in a bad way, so who knows...

 

[Cagey]

Gloss nitro "breathes"?

If you catch your nitro-finished guitar breathing, go get your gun, quick! You're going to need it to:

A. Put it out of its misery, and
B. Save yourself, your family, pets and friends from a fate worse than death!

Remember: garrotes are usually made from guitar or piano strings...

Ever wonder why they put nitro (or any) finishes on Maple, Mahogany or Koa necks? Because it suffocates them. Keeps 'em from going all pretzel on you.

 

[ragamuffin]

Gloss nitro "breathes"?

If you catch your nitro-finished guitar breathing, go get your gun, quick! You're going to need it to:

A. Put it out of its misery, and
B. Save yourself, your family, pets and friends from a fate worse than death!

Remember: garrotes are usually made from guitar or piano strings...

Ever wonder why they put nitro (or any) finishes on Maple, Mahogany or Koa necks? Because it suffocates them. Keeps 'em from going all pretzel on you.

Haha! Well ok, what they said was that it may not "halt the reaction" like a specialized sealer would. I assumed that that had something to do with with the finish breathing. I thought I had heard somewhere that nitro breathes a bit and that was one of the reasons that some people consider it a "better" finish the poly/acrylics. Thinking about it, what you're saying makes a lot more sense.

Anyhow, today was paint day! After several grey and rainy days, the sun came out and allowed me to spray. Tomorrow I shall have pics.

Phaedrus, I considered doing that, since it would be kind of cool to watch the finish "grow up" overtime, but I was worried that it might end up looking like the statue of liberty before long

 

[Cagey]

Traditionally, and somewhat erroneously, nitro was considered a "better" finish because it was thinner. The thought was that polyester/polyurethane finishes went on too thick and they "blanketed" the body and wrecked its tone.

If you were talking about acoustic guitars, there was some truth to that. You want those as raw as can be so they can vibrate freely. But on electrics? Phbbt. Nonsense. The body weighs too much for the finish to have any effect. Besides, to get a good high-gloss finish on a chunk of swamp Ash, you need a ton of filler and a million coats of lacquer. With modern formulations, there's little or no difference in finish thickness between poly and lacquer. On top of that, the body has less to do with how an electric sounds than the neck and pickups. The body is just a mounting platform for the bridge, pickups and controls.

 

[ragamuffin]

Traditionally, and somewhat erroneously, nitro was considered a "better" finish because it was thinner. The thought was that polyester/polyurethane finishes went on too thick and they "blanketed" the body and wrecked its tone.

If you were talking about acoustic guitars, there was some truth to that. You want those as raw as can be so they can vibrate freely. But on electrics? Phbbt. Nonsense. The body weighs too much for the finish to have any effect. Besides, to get a good high-gloss finish on a chunk of swamp Ash, you need a ton of filler and a million coats of lacquer. With modern formulations, there's little or no difference in finish thickness between poly and lacquer. On top of that, the body has less to do with how an electric sounds than the neck and pickups. The body is just a mounting platform for the bridge, pickups and controls.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying that I buy into the idea that finish maters much/at all on electrics. 
Otherwise I wouldn't be quite so keen on slathering my guitar in corroded metal  :glasses9:

 

[Cagey]

Mmmm... corroded metal...​

 

[ragamuffin]

Update: The finish is finished!

Just after spraying. The paint did not come out very smoothly, and I was REALLY worried about how rough and dull it was looking. I later found the cause of my spraying problem, the nozzle of the sprayer was full of little pieces of leaves!!  ??? Seriously?


After a whole lot of elbow grease with sanding and steel wool, I revealed something quite presentable


That night I sprayed on the corrosives and left it out in the Florida heat/humidity and in the morning, after I sprayed on the sealer, it looked something like this:


I left it alone for two days just to be safe and let everything cure, and today I sanded back the patina with steel wool to get a burst look on the top and back, some faux binding, and to polish up the front. Super stoked with the results! I dusted it with nitro for good luck, and called it done.




The back came out great, if not better, except for the fact that I sanded through a bit by the string ferules. It's not a big enough problem to make me want to bother with it, as this is sort of a rustic/reliced looking finish.

Can't wait to slap on the hardware and neck!

I'm also planning on making a logo/truss rod cover thingy for it out of some copper foil, and stamping or painting on the alchemical symbol for copper using some of the left over the patina chemical.

 

[Cagey]

That certainly is unique!

I think if it were me, I'd do more than "dust it" with clear nitro. I'd put on 8 to 10 coats to seal/protect it, then do a proper finish sand/polish so it has a nice shine and some longer life expectancy. Otherwise, it's liable to go to hell in a hurry and I doubt that's a repairable finish.

 

[ragamuffin]

That certainly is unique!

I think if it were me, I'd do more than "dust it" with clear nitro. I'd put on 8 to 10 coats to seal/protect it, then do a proper finish sand/polish so it has a nice shine and some longer life expectancy. Otherwise, it's liable to go to hell in a hurry and I doubt that's a repairable finish.

That's probably wise. The patinated areas are already heavily coated in a matte sealer, and have so much texture that that a fine polished finish would have to be REALLY thick. But for the copper surface areas I am considering adding more coats of nitro and sanding and doing a finish like that. I guess I'm just itching to have it playable

 

[Cagey]

Patience! Slow and steady wins the race. You never want to push finish jobs. Trust me: you don't want to get ahead of yourself, especially on a finish like that. Surely you have something else you can play, right? If not, something you can borrow?

I'm sure you're anxious to put that thing in rotation, but I'm also sure you don't want to waste your time/money/effort by shortchanging a process that's so well-documented. There'll be no excuse. It'll look amateur. No matter what you say, everybody will think "you screwed up".