String through AND Bigsby?

[Don]

Hello everybody!
I'm planning to build a Custom Thinline Tele and i wanted to put a Bigsby b-5 horseshoe vibrato on it, or a similar cheap knockoff.
Now the problem is I listened to some Teles with a Bisgby on them and i noticed that somehow the vibrato subtly changed the attack and the twang of the guitar. Then i realized that Bisgby types of vibratos are stringed to the vibrato bar, not through the body, hence the change in sound. 
So i was wondering would i be able to string the guitar through the body's ferrules, then through the vibrato and finally trough the nut?
Would the strings be long enough?
Would it function properly?
Thanks guys.

 

[AutoBat]

You *could* do it but it doesn't sound practical. Pushing the bar actuates the cam where the terminal end of the strings are located, thus lowering string tension and lowering the pitch of all 6 strings.

I'm not sure if the length of strings would be satisfactory to accomplish the task.

This is based on my understanding how it works and not a representation of trying one out. I could be completely wrong.
Here's a B5 on a Hamer Monaco 3.  It looks like you'd need the string through holes & ferrules quite a bit back further from the normal position to pull it off if you're really going to try this out.

 

[Cagey]

Won't work.

If you look closely at the picture above, you'll see the strings are actually wrapped around and anchored on the rear bobbin. This is what turns to increase/decrease string tension to produce the vibrato effect. If you ran the strings into the body, they wouldn't change tension.

Incidentally, if you do decide to put a Bigsby on anyway, don't use a cheap knock-off like the B-50 or B-500. You want the original B-5. It uses ball bearings on the two spools, while the others use nylon bushings. If anything is gonna suck tone...

 

[crash]

You might want to try some aluminum saddles, if you plan on using a tele bridge with the Bigsby.  I've read that the aluminum saddles give the most twang compared to brass and steel.  That's what the internet says, and they can't put anything that isn't true on the internet.

 

[Cagey]

I'm not certain, but a Tele bridge may be too short to use with a Bigsby. Also, you don't really want to use aluminum saddles as they'd be too soft to be dragging strings across. You end up cutting them in fairly short order. Steel would be the thing to use, and preferably something with rollers like this Wilkinson unit...

 

[AutoBat]

tdpri seems to have a mix of b16 & b5 users.  Another option is to use one with a notched tele bridge instead of the TOM saddles

 

[bagman67]

tdpri seems to have a mix of b16 & b5 users.  Another option is to use one with a notched tele bridge instead of the TOM saddles

Will the break angle over the saddles work in that context?  The standard Tele bridge has the saddles much lower/closer to the surface of the guitar than a TOM-type bridge.

 

[Cagey]

Not only that, Tele saddles aren't fixed in place. They rely on string pull to keep them forward. Just running a string over their top would allow them to move back and forth.

 

[bagman67]

Cagey, is that the bridge you're planning to use on your binding-project guitar?  I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on it, if so.

 

[Cagey]

The Wilkinson unit pictured above? Yes. I already have it, and it's a nice part. The mounting posts are height adjustable and the saddles are intonation adjustable. The saddles have rollers, so the strings won't hang up on them as the trem pulls the strings back and forth. The two post holes have two set screws each to lock it to the mounting posts once you have the height where you want it. Seems like a well-made part, while still being surprisingly inexpensive ($25).

The only thing I don't like about it is the saddles aren't individually height adjustable, and it's set to be a 12" radius. But, the bottoms of the roller saddles themselves are flat and are fixed to the base by cap head screws, so I may try grinding two of them by a couple/few thou, and two others the same way but less so as to flatten the thing out a bit to get the 18" radius I want/need to match up the the Warmoth compound radius neck. Or, I could get a neck with a straight 12" radius. Not sure which way I'll go yet, but I'm leaning toward modifying the bridge. Worst thing that could happen is I wreck a $25 part rather than compromise the feel I'm used to on the neck.

 

[bagman67]

The Wilkinson unit pictured above? Yes. I already have it, and it's a nice part. The mounting posts are height adjustable and the saddles are intonation adjustable. The saddles have rollers, so the strings won't hang up on them as the trem pulls the strings back and forth. The two post holes have two set screws each to lock it to the mounting posts once you have the height where you want it. Seems like a well-made part, while still being surprisingly inexpensive ($25).

Darn, I could totally have spent 85 bucks achieving similar results with the Tonepros part.

 

[Don]

I don't know if you considered this already (i didn't point that out, so it's my bad) but i would have used a standard ashtray tele bridge with the part facing the vibrato sawn off and with proper saddles. Pretty much like one of those guitarfetish kits for tele, but instead of the plain plate, a vintage ashtray plate.
Btw cagey would i be able to mount one of those Wilkinsons on a standard ashtray?

 

[Cagey]

It could be done. You'd have to drill out some substantial holes to clear the bushings, and they'd interfere with the standard mounting holes so you might have to fill those before you drill for the Wilkie's bushings. Then, you'd have to drill some more holes in a different location for mounting the plate itself. It looks like more work than it's worth for the goofy-looking results you'd get.

You'd be better off just losing the plate altogether. It wouldn't serve any purpose any more, unless you were relying on it for bridge pickup mounting.

 

[SustainerPlayer]

Or you could track down one of these at an USA-supplier or evilbay:

Mounting plate to mount a B5 of B50 with a TOM bridge to a Tele.

 

[Don]

Or you could track down one of these at an USA-supplier or evilbay:

Mounting plate to mount a B5 of B50 with a TOM bridge to a Tele.

I'm not from the USA, I'm European, plus  the idea is to have a standard ashtray+Bigbsy, i'm not going after different solutions.
If that's not possible, i'll just get rid of the Bisgby.
The principle though seems right to me. The strings ferrules on the rear bar of the bigsby works as a stop point for the strings. With a string through body config, you are simply moving the stop point a little further. Since the tremolo action works with the tension of the strings, it doesn't matter where the stop point is, as long as it's fixed.
The only issues with this could be the strings lenght or friction: too much and the strings will brake, too little and they will slip.
What's wrong with this concept? 

 

[Cagey]

That rear spool moves the stop point. That's how it changes the string tension. The string loads through and wraps around the spool. String tension pulls forward on the spool against the spring tension of the Bigsby. As you move the wang bar up and down, you rotate that spool. If you anchor the strings through the body, you won't be able to move the stop point with the Bigsby.

 

[Don]

That rear spool moves the stop point. That's how it changes the string tension. The string loads through and wraps around the spool. String tension pulls forward on the spool against the spring tension of the Bigsby. As you move the wang bar up and down, you rotate that spool. If you anchor the strings through the body, you won't be able to move the stop point with the Bigsby.

Oh! I see now! Oh well, not really, i'm a little confused. :laughing7:
If i understand well, with this configuration i should get the exact opposite of a normal Bisgby action (which is lowering the pitch i suppose), because the stop point is fixed on the body so every movement on the Bigsby lever should result in higher strings  tension/pitch right?
Would even that work or i'll end up breaking some stuff?


...Even though if you thing about it, i could make a system of springs going inside the body ferrules and pass the strings inside the springs with a little washer (the washer has to be smaller than the ferrule hole itself) at end of each hole to keep everything inside it except the string's ball end. That should give the vibrato some room to rotate and loosen the strings as the force over the springs gets lower, and viceversa, and then get back to normal tension. It should take a little of trial and error to calibrate it, but maybe it will work.
What do you think about it?

 

[Cagey]

If you thread the strings through the body and then through front side of the rear spool of the Bigsby, up and around the back of it, under the front spool and then up over the bridge to the tuners, the vibrato would work. But, when you manipulate the vibrato arm you're going to work harden the strings at the bend points and they'll break in no time flat. I'd be surprised if they lasted one tune. And speaking of tuning, it's unlikely the thing would hold a tune at all, which is already a sore spot with that bridge.

As for your suggestion, I can't see that working at all.

If you want a vibrato on a Tele, the thing to use is either a Wilkinson VS-100...

... or a Schaller 5250-010...

... or, a Fender American Standard...

The Schaller part is arguably the best of the lot, but good luck finding one. Also, in all cases, you're going to need some serious routing work done.

 

[Don]

If you thread the strings through the body and then through front side of the rear spool of the Bigsby, up and around the back of it, under the front spool and then up over the bridge to the tuners, the vibrato would work. But, when you manipulate the vibrato arm you're going to work harden the strings at the bend points and they'll break in no time flat. I'd be surprised if they lasted one tune. And speaking of tuning, it's unlikely the thing would hold a tune at all, which is already a sore spot with that bridge.

As for your suggestion, I can't see that working at all.

If you want a vibrato on a Tele, the thing to use is either a Wilkinson VS-100...

... or a Schaller 5250-010...

... or, a Fender American Standard...

The Schaller part is arguably the best of the lot, but good luck finding one. Also, in all cases, you're going to need some serious routing work done.

Thanks for the suggestions Cagey, but if i wanted a guitar with a stratoid tremolo i would have upgraded my old squier stratocaster instead of selling it 
If the Bigsby won't work then i'll just keep it with a normal ashtray. It's gonna be a budget guitar after all.
But just for curiosity's sake, could anybody that has a Tele with Bigsby please see if a new, uncut high e manages to get to its tuning key on the headstock?

 

[Cagey]

...just for curiosity's sake, could anybody that has a Tele with Bigsby please see if a new, uncut high e manages to get to its tuning key on the headstock?

Do you think if anybody had a Tele with a Bigsby where a standard string was too short to install, that it would still have a Bigsby?

Here's a couple hundred examples of Teles with Bigsbys, if you're curious about their existence. Rest assured, it's been done a number of times.

I would strongly suggest you use locking tuners and a graphtech or LSR nut. Bigsbys need all the help they can get to stay in tune.