String Tension : TOM vs String Thru-body

[pabloman]

Ya. when you bend strings on a floyd guitar the whole thing moves. Double stop bends sound silly. Not that I know what souble stops are because those are for you country/tele guys.

 

[Superlizard]

Ya. when you bend strings on a floyd guitar the whole thing moves. Double stop bends sound silly. Not that I know what souble stops are because those are for you country/tele guys.

You bring up a very interesting point which I have mulled over regarding trem-equipped guitars in the past.

When you bend a string and the floating bridge lifts with it, does that not affect the scale length slightly (if only briefly)?

 

[TBurst Std]

The break (angle) over the saddle is also a source of tension - the sharper the break, the more tension
at the end-point where string meets saddle.  The lesser the break, the less tension at the end-point
where string meets saddle... and the less defined the string scale.

TRUE!

 

[TBurst Std]

To take this discussion in a different direction, if we concur that break angle at the saddles is important to feel, should we not also pay attention to it at the nut?

Agreed/definitely - what happens at the bridge also applies to the nut as well... angle and all.

Glad you agree as it appears at times we were at different points,

 

[TBurst Std]

Ya. when you bend strings on a floyd guitar the whole thing moves. Double stop bends sound silly. Not that I know what souble stops are because those are for you country/tele guys.

You bring up a very interesting point which I have mulled over regarding trem-equipped guitars in the past.

When you bend a string and the floating bridge lifts with it, does that not affect the scale length slightly (if only briefly)?

Scale length is a defined measurement/implmenentation and does not change without an instrument rebuild. What can change is intonation. and yes it does.
Though largely not discernable in guitars, but theoritically in longer string instruments.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

BAM!!!!!!!!! Case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!! That my friends was the haymaker! This ever so gracefully sums it all up.

In not so many words, I said that on the 2nd page.

 

[TBurst Std]

In this I do not mean to flame anyone, but rather ask about imperical evidence.
We have heard lore as well as math here.
I am curious how many have actually Measured this? In that for this case example; measured lbs for a specific string deflection on a TOM based guitar (as that seems to be the bridge referenced) normally strung. Then top wrapped, reintonated, and measured again.
If you have, feel free to share your findings, If you haven't, realize you are an arm-chair QB and/or potentionally talking out your arse.

C'mon guys this is easy to do. I did it early on. This is grade school stuff.  I mean top wrapping is not a new concept. Its decades old. Why it may be preferred is often a point of presumption.

 

[pabloman]

FWIW we really aren't talking about static measurements on open strings. It is while the guitar is being played and notes are being bent. I don't know this for sure but I do suspect the more interesting would be behind the bridge.

 

[Cagey]

FWIW we really aren't talking about static measurements on open strings. It is while the guitar is being played and notes are being bent. I don't know this for sure but I do suspect the more interesting would be behind the bridge.

FWIW, we aren't talking about measurements, period. This discussion is based largely on beliefs. Math and physics already have all the answers to this question, but some people don't believe in those, or at least don't understand them and so are willing to be convinced otherwise if you're passionate enough about it and can make a seemingly plausible case. Thing is, this whole phenomena is so well understood you don't need real-world experiments to prove it any more unless you're in junior high and need practical examples of how the math works in order to cement the concepts in place.

 

[pabloman]

Umm......yes Cagey, measurements were discussed. I love when people try to throw some formulas out there and try to convince people they know what they are talking about. There are a myriad of factors at play, not just the tension between the saddle and the nut. When a string is bent at a sharper angle over the saddle this changes a strings structure and vibrating characteristic. The outside of the bend or top end of the string is stretched and the inside or underside is compressed. This happens to affect the way astring vibrates. There are also different amounts of tension between the TOM and the Tailpiece based on the distance between these two components. When you bend a string during playing where do you think the extra length comes from? You are having to overcome the downward pressure caused by the breakover angle AND the tension between the TOM and tailpiece. None of the formulas or mathematics that anyone has given account for these variables. Thank You. I accept all the apologies of the naysayers and disbelievers who attempted feeble challenges and arguments to the contrary. arty07:

 

[Superlizard]

To take this discussion in a different direction, if we concur that break angle at the saddles is important to feel, should we not also pay attention to it at the nut?

Agreed/definitely - what happens at the bridge also applies to the nut as well... angle and all.

Glad you agree as it appears at times we were at different points,

:icon_thumright:

 

[Superlizard]

BAM!!!!!!!!! Case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!! That my friends was the haymaker! This ever so gracefully sums it all up.

In not so many words, I said that on the 2nd page.

True.

 

[Superlizard]

Ya. when you bend strings on a floyd guitar the whole thing moves. Double stop bends sound silly. Not that I know what souble stops are because those are for you country/tele guys.

You bring up a very interesting point which I have mulled over regarding trem-equipped guitars in the past.

When you bend a string and the floating bridge lifts with it, does that not affect the scale length slightly (if only briefly)?

Scale length is a defined measurement/implmenentation and does not change without an instrument rebuild. What can change is intonation. and yes it does.
Though largely not discernable in guitars, but theoritically in longer string instruments.

Intonation is changing the scale length of the string (albeit in very small amounts)... which is more precisely what I meant; not
technically the entire instrument's scale length.

I've noticed for example when trem-ing - dropping in pitch - the saddles actually raise up some (along with the bridge) and the further
I drop in pitch with trem, the closer to the nut the saddles get.  Again, very small increments.

All this is more of related tangent if anything.

 

[BigBeard]

Jeez, everybody hungover with no freakin coffee this morning?  Wow!!!!!  Talk about a thread getting all kinds of ugly.

Suprised nobody wanted to bust on me for calling a Carvin neck through a pencil necked geek!!!!

 

[mayfly]

You are having to overcome the downward pressure caused by the breakover angle AND the tension between the TOM and tailpiece. None of the formulas or mathematics that anyone has given account for these variables.

Ah - now I see where you guys are getting this from.  That's an interesting argument, but sadly it's not correct.

Here's why: when a string is tuned to pitch, it's tension is governed by the pitch, per unit length mass of the string material, and the distance between the vibration endpoints.  When the string is bent to a new pitch, effectively the tension on that string is increased to make it go to the higher pitch.  Again the tension is governed by the pitch (higher), per unit length mass of the string material (unchanged), and the distance between the vibration endpoints (the same).  As long as you don't change the scale length or the string gauge, the additional tension you need to apply with your finger to reach that bent pitch is same.  It does not matter what the various break angles are, or how much string is on the other side of the vibration endpoints.  It is tempting to think that if you have a pile of string on the other side of the bridge, it will be easier to bend the note because the additional string length will allow for the string to stretch easier.  Well, maybe that string does move but the point is it does not matter - the increased tension to get to the new pitch is always only dependent on the scale length, the per unit mass of the string, and the pitch you're going for.  Also, it does not matter how the tension is increased to get to that pitch - you could bend the note, use your wammy bar, or turn the tuning peg.  The increased tension to get to the new pitch will always be the same.

As for where the additional string comes from, well, the string stretches or it moves over the bridge/nut.  Still does not change the scale length or the per unit length mass of the string. In fact, in applications where there is zero friction at the bridge or nut, the tension would be the same on the other side of the bridge and nut.

As I mentioned earlier, this is backed up with my own experiences with my own guitars.  Oh - and I also did this in undergrad physics lab with digital tension meters.  Sadly threw out the lab notes 10 years ago, so you'll have to take my word on that.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Well put.  I guess now I don't have to apologize, and it seems the horse is finally dead.
Patrick

 

[shadoweowl]

im sorry to sound like a a-hole now buddies but...

SHUT UP AND PLAY YOUR fudging GUITARS! they miss you?

all this blabbing about lengths and shit makes me mad just try different things and see what you like instead of all this bullshit

i mean we are guitar players not goddamn rocket scientists right? its the joy of playing and building that brings us together not argueing about this and that?

i love this forum but sometimes there is too much bullshit and too little sensible talking!

but on topic i must say that if you want to get slinky feeling try a 2 point vibrato like a wilkinson or a floyd!

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

There hadn't been a post in 2 weeks.  I think we had moved on.

 

[mayfly]

zzzzZZZzzz huh?  Wha??  oh - yea...

had completely forgotten about this.

<goes back to sleep>  zzzzzzzzz