String Tension : TOM vs String Thru-body

[TBurst Std]

The point most have a difficult time grasping is that a certian freq is specific to overall string length tension RELATIVE to intonation points (IE: nut and saddles).

Change intonation points (nut and saddles IE: scale length) and a different tension will be required to reached a certain freq if the overall string length has not been altered.

Change the overall length of a string and a different tension will be required to reach a certain freq if the scale length has not been altered.

As a guitar has relatively short strings, this is not easily apparant. But it is still factual. Play around with a double bass and you will start to see.

FYI: I do top wrap my LP  LOL.

Wrong across the board.

Do the math. I gave a link earlier, and somebody else even pasted in the math so you wouldn't have to follow a link.

These aren't opinions, beliefs, magic, myths or dogma. These are facts. They are The Way Things Work.

And as long as you're top-wrapping your bridge or tailpiece, why don't you do it three or four times? If what you believe is true, it should get progressively easier to tune/stretch strings. Try it. See what happens. My guess is you'll find it doesn't make any difference. But, doing it once does? Why is that?

Believe what you want. I will know what is true.
Case closed

 

[Superlizard]

+100000000000. I love the whole I've been fixin guitars for 30 years and I know everything attitude. Or the I've never tried it but it ain't gonna work attitude. Shut up and try it. Do you seriously think everybody that HAS tried it and uses it is full if shiteeee and you are the only one who knows the TRUTH? Why would you jump on a forum and run your mouth about something like you are the be all end all and not even have first hand experience? That just makes you an idiot. Sure somebody might not use the correct verbage but the implied message is definately conveyed. The pretentious know it all attitude is effin exhausting.  :guitarplayer2:

There's a lot of penis envy floating around here.

It's one thing to pretend one has decades of experience with guitars; it's another to actually have said experience.

On occasion, two experienced dudes will hash it out over something (inevitable), but usually it's some smarmy wanna-be-experienced
punk looking for some "street cred" with the board who questions those of us with experience on things that are true (or at least
true with a majority or enough people to be considered valid).

And I refuse to be called a bullshiteeter by someone who hasn't even tried what I may suggest as a friendly tip.

The funny thing I've noticed about people giving advice here is nobody hardly ever says "thanks" nor do they even say if it worked or not... took
me awhile to see this pattern but it is definitely there.

 

[TBurst Std]

[
And as long as you're top-wrapping your bridge or tailpiece, why don't you do it three or four times? If what you believe is true, it should get progressively easier to tune/stretch strings. Try it. See what happens. My guess is you'll find it doesn't make any difference. But, doing it once does? Why is that?

Oh and I top wrap for not for this reason you seem to have in your mind but instead because I prefer to have the TP in a lower postion ( aplying comfort preference).

Wrapping multiple times would serve no use. there would be no tension in the additional wraps.

I saw the math posted, and it is correct (I studied this as well in my EE studies). The fact is the equation doesn't take into account intonation points. It is based upon a single beam concept. I mean the eqaution is not novel, its right out of the CRC handbook.

I would suggest a practical test if you do not want to modify your eqaution. Craft a new taile piece from scratch for a double bass and experiement. Or work on a harp angle. I bet you could even test this on a grand piano by introducing intonation points. as I noted before , in the concept of a guitar, it is not relevant, but for longer strings, yes it is.

Just beacause you seem to be limiting the illustration to a guitar, don't toss away practicality and physics.

 

[TBurst Std]

To take this discussion in a different direction, if we concur that break angle at the saddles is important to feel, should we not also pay attention to it at the nut? Often it seems they desired break angle is just enough to keep the strings in place. Have you experimented with this?
It is interesting.

I suggest this, measure the force to deflect a string by a given measure. Now make a change to the angle, re-intonate, and remeasure, let me know what you find

 

[Superlizard]

What's funny with all this is the missed fact that:

- Why do, say, .009 gauge (set) strings feel slinkier than, say, .013 gauge (set) strings?

I mean, after all, they are both tuned to the same pitch.

According to the theory pushed here re: tension, they should both feel the same since they're at the same pitch.

But they don't feel the same.

So obviously there's more at play with this...  than just tension.

The same goes for wrapping over the top... there's more at play with it than just tension.

 

[mayfly]

And once again, the big elephant in the room nobody wants to see:

The tailpiece is adjustable so you can adjust the angle over the bridge.

 

The tail piece is designed to be height adjustable because initially that's all there was - there was no TOM bridge, just the tailpiece.  In the original design, that's how the action was adjusted.  Of course, in the original design the strings were wrapped around the top, because it was the tailpiece that formed the bridge.  Once the TOM was introduced, they just re-used existing parts and tooling, but they stopped wrapping the strings around the tailpiece because there was no need to do it.  Not sure about your Gibson, but mine arrived from the factory with the tailpiece screwed all the way to the body and the strings put through from the back, not wrapped around.

Oh - and it doesn't matter, but I bought the LP with money that I saved working construction.  I was working for my dad though.  

 

[bigguspickus]

The funny thing I've noticed about people giving advice here is nobody hardly ever says "thanks" nor do they even say if it worked or not... took
me awhile to see this pattern but it is definitely there.

Thanks SL! I find your crazy old man rants very amusing. :icon_biggrin:

 

[mayfly]

What's funny with all this is the missed fact that:

- Why do, say, .009 gauge (set) strings feel slinkier than, say, .013 gauge (set) strings?

I mean, after all, they are both tuned to the same pitch.

According to the theory pushed here re: tension, they should both feel the same since they're at the same pitch.

But they don't feel the same.

So obviously there's more at play with this...  than just tension.

The same goes for wrapping over the top... there's more at play with it than just tension.

They are indeed tuned to the same pitch, but the heaver strings will require more tension to reach that pitch because of their increased mass along the vibrating length of the string.
The increased tension is responsible for the change in feel.

BTW, I found this and it's pretty cool:

http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/stringxxiii.html

 

[Superlizard]

The funny thing I've noticed about people giving advice here is nobody hardly ever says "thanks" nor do they even say if it worked or not... took
me awhile to see this pattern but it is definitely there.

Thanks SL! I find your crazy old man rants very amusing. :icon_biggrin:

Better to be a crazy old man than a clueless shill pushing over-priced Gibson guitars.  :icon_thumright:

 

[Superlizard]

What's funny with all this is the missed fact that:

- Why do, say, .009 gauge (set) strings feel slinkier than, say, .013 gauge (set) strings?

I mean, after all, they are both tuned to the same pitch.

According to the theory pushed here re: tension, they should both feel the same since they're at the same pitch.

But they don't feel the same.

So obviously there's more at play with this...  than just tension.

The same goes for wrapping over the top... there's more at play with it than just tension.

They are indeed tuned to the same pitch, but the heaver strings will require more tension to reach that pitch because of their increased mass along the vibrating length of the string.
The increased tension is responsible for the change in feel.

BTW, I found this and it's pretty cool:

http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/stringxxiii.html

... and what happens to our string when the angle over the saddle is minimized?

 

[Superlizard]

Is string/scale length still as precisely defined/the same with a sharp angle over the saddle... as opposed to a negligible angle over the saddle?

 

[bigguspickus]

Better to be a crazy old man than a clueless shill pushing over-priced Gibson guitars.

You can buy all the Chinese knockoffs you like. I just love America!

predictable idiotic Kool-aid reference

Drink up!

 

[Superlizard]

The break (angle) over the saddle is also a source of tension - the sharper the break, the more tension
at the end-point where string meets saddle.  The lesser the break, the less tension at the end-point
where string meets saddle... and the less defined the string scale.

 

[Superlizard]

And when you bend a string, does the string only stretch between the nut and saddle?

(LOL)

 

[pabloman]

BAM!!!!!!!!! Case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!! That my friends was the haymaker! This ever so gracefully sums it all up.

 

[Superlizard]

To take this discussion in a different direction, if we concur that break angle at the saddles is important to feel, should we not also pay attention to it at the nut?

Agreed/definitely - what happens at the bridge also applies to the nut as well... angle and all.

 

[mayfly]

And when you bend a string, does the string only stretch between the nut and saddle?

(LOL)

In that line of reasoning, does a floyd equipped strat feel different than one without?

BTW - I actually don't know in my experience - never played them side by side. but string tension theory tells us they would feel the same.

 

[Cagey]

Don't forget the Twang Worms!

 

[mayfly]

Don't forget the Twang Worms!

Closely related to tone worms. 

I've got a big can of Twang Worms in my telecasters - don't make me open them up!  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Superlizard]

In that line of reasoning, does a floyd equipped strat feel different than one without?

BTW - I actually don't know in my experience - never played them side by side. but string tension theory tells us they would feel the same.

I haven't Floyded in decades.. someone else would have to chime in.

But it would stand to reason that string scale length with a full Floyd setup is defined solely by:

a)  locking blocks in bridge (clearly defined because it's clamped)

to

b)  locking nut (and it ends there and is clearly defined as well because the string end is cut off by the clamp... the string
from nut to tuner is irrelevant/a non-factor with the locking nut clamped down)