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String Tension : TOM vs String Thru-body

Paul-less said:
I need to call bullshite.

tension has to do with string gauge, and string length.

I do, however, believe with would decrease sustain, since that beautiful break angle coming off of the T-o-M is being bastardized by putting the strings OVER the tailpiece.....

It changes the break-over angle, which makes bends feel different.
 
Doughboy, buddy..... I hope you like peccil neck guitars, cause that is what you will be getting with that Carvin if it is a neck through!!!!  I have one of their necks in a project that I built years ago, and my logic on buying a Carvin was that it would be easier to BUILD the guitar if all I had to do was glue on some lumber for body wings...  Ok that part might be true in a sense, because I built the guitar before I was the router zorro that I am today, but in playing the neck through guitar, well it doesn't have much to grab.  Super-duper thin.  Which is fine if that is your thing, but if you are a boatneck guy (as I am) you might want to save your pilsbury for another turtle!!!!!

On the scale length, though, if you are used to the real estate you have on a Fender scale in the upper frets, you will think you are playing a scalloped neck, the frets from about 15-24 are so close I can't fret a string and actually push it down to the ebony.  Bending is slighly easier on the 25" scale, especially from about the 7th to 15th fret, you 'll notice the difference for sure!

One thing I will say about neck through construction is the guitar will sustain all month!  And you FEEL it in the body of the guitar!
 
Paul-less said:
AutoBat said:
if you want the shortest string length, maybe you should jump on a Gotoh 510
DSC_3382.JPG

Maybe I should rephrase.

By string length, I ment from the nut to the saddle. That is the length that is the string is vibrating.

I wil say, however, that those Gotoh 510's would look pretty sexy on a LPS
Wouldn't the string length be the same with any bridge when properly setup? If you have the same guitar with the same set of strings then when you set the intonation, which is what determines final string length, the string should be the same length. So having the ability to go closer to the nut really isn't any kind of benefit if the guitar isn't in tune all the way up the neck.
 
pabloman said:
Wouldn't the string length be the same with any bridge when properly setup? If you have the same guitar with the same set of strings then when you set the intonation, which is what determines final string length, the string should be the same length. So having the ability to go closer to the nut really isn't any kind of benefit if the guitar isn't in tune all the way up the neck.

Yes. For a given gauge string and distance between pivot points, a string has to be brought to a certain tension to vibrate at a particular frequency. Running the string for a mile past the bridge or nut (pivot points), or terminating it right at those points makes no difference. That means strings on a 25.5" scale need to be tighter than those on a 24.75" scale to produce the same note. The math is here.
 
Doughboy said:
I'm mainly concerned about string tension. I like slinky loose feeling tension & was wondering if the String thru body would cause more tension than a TOM on the same scal eneck.

I think we determined a long time ago that this characteristic should be called stiffness and not tension.

Imagine a strat bolted down to a 15 foot long table so it can't move, and the head stock is almost at one end of the table.
Now imagine that someone has made a set of normal guitar strings that are all 16 feet long.
Now imagine that you get a TOM stop tail piece and anchor that the the other end of the table and then string it up and tune it.

That should give you the idea of how the feeling of stiffness thing works.

 
Paul-less said:
Superlizard said:
I dunno bout TOM vs string-thru, but here's a little string tension tip for
those of youse TOM+tailpiece owners:

Try wrapping the strings around in reverse... like the really old-school no-bridge setups.

In other words, insert the start of the string into the *opposite side from norm* hole on the tailpiece,
so the string ball end would be facing the TOM bridge piece once the string is threaded all the way through.

Then wrap string up and over the tailpiece, thru the tuner hole and tune up as normal.

You will get slightly less tenison on the strings.   Not that 24 3/4" scale is tight as it is anyways, but ya know...

*NOTE*  you *will* mar the surface of the tailpiece slightly.

images

I need to call bullshite.

tension has to do with string gauge, and string length.

I do, however, believe with would decrease sustain, since that beautiful break angle coming off of the T-o-M is being bastardized by putting the strings OVER the tailpiece.....

Have you even tried it?  This is an well-known, old-school tip that's been around
longer than you.

If you haven't tried it, then you're just talking outta your ass.

(I'm getting tired of all of the f*cking inexperienced think-I-know-it-all punkasses here - don't be one of them)
 
+100000000000. I love the whole I've been fixin guitars for 30 years and I know everything attitude. Or the I've never tried it but it ain't gonna work attitude. Shut up and try it. Do you seriously think everybody that HAS tried it and uses it is full if shite and you are the only one who knows the TRUTH? Why would you jump on a forum and run your mouth about something like you are the be all end all and not even have first hand experience? That just makes you an idiot. Sure somebody might not use the correct verbage but the implied message is definately conveyed. The pretentious know it all attitude is effin exhausting.  :guitarplayer2: 
 
Superlizard said:
Have you even tried it?  This is an well-known, old-school tip that's been around
longer than you.

If you haven't tried it, then you're just talking outta your ass.

(I'm getting tired of all of the f*cking inexperienced think-I-know-it-all punkasses here - don't be one of them)

The tension is based on the gauge of the string, the scale of the guitar, and the frequency that it is being tuned to.  That is Physics, and yes, it has been around for quite a long time.  The break angle over the bridge and nut can make the guitar behave differently, but the tension is given by this relationship:

f=(1/2L)(T/p)^1/2

Where f = freq, L = length of string, T = tension (measured as a mass), and p = mass per unit length (odd version of density) of the string.

The p is what comes in on different brands of strings with different core dimensions to make them feel looser or stiffer.  But, at a fixed length, the string tension will be the same for a consistent brand of string at that held length.  As far as what one guitarist says, being true or not, there are several examples in history of well placed lies.  Also, there are not that many professional guitarists that look the physics up to explain the phernomena that occur on a guitar.  Perception can be misleading, and is often held as fact in the court of public opinion.
Patrick

 
Patrick from Davis said:
Superlizard said:
Have you even tried it?  This is an well-known, old-school tip that's been around
longer than you.

If you haven't tried it, then you're just talking outta your ass.

(I'm getting tired of all of the f*cking inexperienced think-I-know-it-all punkasses here - don't be one of them)

The tension is based on the gauge of the string, the scale of the guitar, and the frequency that it is being tuned to.  That is Physics, and yes, it has been around for quite a long time.  The break angle over the bridge and nut can make the guitar behave differently, but the tension is given by this relationship:

f=(1/2L)(T/p)^1/2

Where f = freq, L = length of string, T = tension (measured as a mass), and p = mass per unit length (odd version of density) of the string.

The p is what comes in on different brands of strings with different core dimensions to make them feel looser or stiffer.  But, at a fixed length, the string tension will be the same for a consistent brand of string at that held length.  As far as what one guitarist says, being true or not, there are several examples in history of well placed lies.  Also, there are not that many professional guitarists that look the physics up to explain the phernomena that occur on a guitar.  Perception can be misleading, and is often held as fact in the court of public opinion.
Patrick


[/quote
This all very beaten to death. As I eluded to in my post when the word tension was used that was done in error. The downward pressure of the string on the saddle is altered and that changes the "feel" of the strings and THIS is what is being discussed.
 
Patrick from Davis said:
As far as what one guitarist says, being true or not, there are several examples in history of well placed lies.  Also, there are not that many professional guitarists that look the physics up to explain the phernomena that occur on a guitar.  Perception can be misleading, and is often held as fact in the court of public opinion.
Patrick

What you're describing is the difference between left- and right-brain dominant thought processes. Right-brain dominant people are easily convinced of abstract ideas that have little or no basis in fact. Ghosts, gods, emotions, and so forth rule. For them, a formula, law or proof has little or nothing to do with reality, and can be easily dismissed.

Left-brain dominant people are just the opposite. Logic, reason, facts and proof prevail. Their reality is actually real. Unfortunately, it's often unavailable to the inner chick of the right-brained.

For both people, though, their reality is absolute, so they can never agree. Wars have been fought over this.

Best thing you can do is learn to recognize the right-brainers and govern yourself accordingly. They're no less powerful for their ignorance, and everybody has to get along.
 
The point most have a difficult time grasping is that a certian freq is specific to overall string length tension RELATIVE to intonation points (IE: nut and saddles).

Change intonation points (nut and saddles IE: scale length) and a different tension will be required to reached a certain freq if the overall string length has not been altered.

Change the overall length of a string and a different tension will be required to reach a certain freq if the scale length has not been altered.

As a guitar has relatively short strings, this is not easily apparant. But it is still factual. Play around with a double bass and you will start to see.

FYI: I do top wrap my LP  LOL.
 
Perhaps a lot of the problem for me is the misuse of specific terms.  I do understand that the downward force on the bridge and the nut is what is being debated with respect to whether or not a guitar feels loose or plays tight.  But, the term tension has been clearly defined, and it is misused frequently.  This leads to general confusion about the guitar and terms we use to describe it.

I also maintain that the because someone said so, or the since we've always done it that way arguments are precarious.  

tradition03.jpg


While that image is a good joke, it does illustrate the absurdity of the situation.  Add a bit of firey emotion to that, and it can fall apart quickly.  That being said, the physics are sound and have been for quite some time now.
Patrick

 
Agreed. But since we all now know that the term "tension" was misused in the OP why continue to beat the dead horse. We are all aware that you have a firm grasp of the principles involved as do many who have posted the same thing you did previously.
 
TBurst Std said:
The point most have a difficult time grasping is that a certian freq is specific to overall string length tension RELATIVE to intonation points (IE: nut and saddles).

Change intonation points (nut and saddles IE: scale length) and a different tension will be required to reached a certain freq if the overall string length has not been altered.

Change the overall length of a string and a different tension will be required to reach a certain freq if the scale length has not been altered.

As a guitar has relatively short strings, this is not easily apparant. But it is still factual. Play around with a double bass and you will start to see.

FYI: I do top wrap my LP  LOL.


I think people grasp this pretty well. The difference between a Strat and an LPas far as string feel are concerned are pretty apparent and widely known.The fact that frets are fixed negates the fact that you can play around with string length. What good is an adjustment if you aren't in tune?
 
pabloman said:
The downward pressure of the string on the saddle is altered and that changes the "feel" of the strings and THIS is what is being discussed.

Exactly.

Not only that, why in the world would the typical Tune-O-matic tailpiece even be adustable?  

You can raise or lower the tailpiece to the desired string angle over the bridge.

Why would they design said adustment if it did absolutely "nothing"?

It's the same angle we're dealing with (in regards to wrapping over the tailpiece)... that the adjustable tailpiece affects.

Anyone who has vision can see the angle difference between these photos:

images


N_LPfeat6.jpg
 
Too much angle will cause the bridge to cave in and can put too much stress on the tailpiece studs. But that is when too much of a difference is used.
 
TBurst Std said:
The point most have a difficult time grasping is that a certian freq is specific to overall string length tension RELATIVE to intonation points (IE: nut and saddles).

Change intonation points (nut and saddles IE: scale length) and a different tension will be required to reached a certain freq if the overall string length has not been altered.

Change the overall length of a string and a different tension will be required to reach a certain freq if the scale length has not been altered.

As a guitar has relatively short strings, this is not easily apparant. But it is still factual. Play around with a double bass and you will start to see.

FYI: I do top wrap my LP  LOL.

Wrong across the board.

Do the math. I gave a link earlier, and somebody else even pasted in the math so you wouldn't have to follow a link.

These aren't opinions, beliefs, magic, myths or dogma. These are facts. They are The Way Things Work.

And as long as you're top-wrapping your bridge or tailpiece, why don't you do it three or four times? If what you believe is true, it should get progressively easier to tune/stretch strings. Try it. See what happens. My guess is you'll find it doesn't make any difference. But, doing it once does? Why is that?
 
Superlizard said:
(I'm getting tired of all of the f*cking inexperienced think-I-know-it-all punkasses here - don't be one of them)

There is a serious amount of irony here  :headbang:

BTW, I tried that mod about 30 years ago - it was one of the first things that I tried with my '78 goldtop.  Didn't make any difference - at least to me.

One additional data point - the break angle of the B strings on my bender guitars is completely different from the other strings on the same guitar.  There is no noticeable difference to my fingers between the different strings.  And finally - I recently strung one of my telecasters as a top-loader instead of through hole just for fun.  Intellectually I didn't think it would make a difference - and I turned out to be right:  no difference.

YMMV.


 
mayfly said:
BTW, I tried that mod about 30 years ago - it was one of the first things that I tried with my '78 goldtop.  Didn't make any difference - at least to me.

One additional data point - the break angle of the B strings on my bender guitars is completely different from the other strings on the same guitar.  There is no noticeable difference to my fingers between the different strings.  And finally - I recently strung one of my telecasters as a top-loader instead of through hole just for fun.  Intellectually I didn't think it would make a difference - and I turned out to be right:  no difference.

Wait! wait. You forgot this...

Cherry_Koolaid.jpg


SmartJuice 3.4, fortified with Belief(tm)

That's no ordinary Kool_Aid. That's special Musician's Forum Kool-Aid. Drink that, then try the experiment again.


Not_The_Droids.jpg


These aren't the physics discussions you're looking for...
 
mayfly said:
Superlizard said:
(I'm getting tired of all of the f*cking inexperienced think-I-know-it-all punkasses here - don't be one of them)

There is a serious amount of irony here  :headbang:

And it's ironic you'd be the one to point that out.   :icon_biggrin:

Anyhoo - your smartass response aside:

mayfly said:
BTW, I tried that mod about 30 years ago - it was one of the first things that I tried with my '78 goldtop.  Didn't make any difference - at least to me.

And of course, because it didn't make a difference to you, then it doesn't exist, and other
players' experience matters not.  You are the be-all-end-all.  
(Besides, 30 years ago you were just a little squirt - what the hell would you know?   & did your mommy buy
that Goldtop for ya?  :icon_biggrin: )

Now who's the know-it-all?   :party07:

I could take this a smidge further (seeing how you chose to):

Jimmy Page, Billy Gibbons and Joe Bonamassa (to name a few) all wrap over the top.

I think it's safe to say that you, Mayfly, aren't 1/1000th of the player any of them are in terms
of experience... or talent.

And once again, the big elephant in the room nobody wants to see:

The tailpiece is adjustable so you can adjust the angle over the bridge.

So, who's correct?  "Joe Schmoe" Mayfly who had a brief stint building amps and plays out in the bars
on occasion, or Jimmy Page/Billy Gibbons/Joe Bonamassa (pick any one)?

Feel free, Mayfly to walk up to Jimmy Page (for ex) next time you're at a concert and tell him
he's incorrect.  Or Billy for that matter.

But the main point is:  If you've tried it, fine.  If you haven't tried it, don't talk outta your ass.
And that's exactly what the dude was doing.  I merely offered a friendly tip, the penis envy got to someone
(you too - later on) and I got called on supposed "bullshiteee".   F*cking pathetic.  :laughing11:  
 
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