standalone recorders vs pc

[swarfrat]

i recently realized how long I've been fidling with trying to get and keep recording going under Linux. as a younger man i would still hold out. It's finally getting close. But  free time is at a premium and will be for at least another 18 years or so.

I briefly thought about Mac, but its as stupidly expensive as it ever was. I'm actually thinking maybe the better route both in terms of cost and neoluddite workflow, is to buy one of the standalone recorders, but I'm worried it will end up looking like all the frustration of pc based recording just in a more limited packaging.

I'm trying to keep a pretty organic workflow. i do need to be able to tie audioand MIDI together but I figure everyones been doing that for 20 years now. I think I'd rather treat MIDI as just another track and punch in and out and not fiddle with manual note entry, arpeggiators, piano roll etc...

I would however like to have the option of some really nice brass &woodwind VST's. (Actually one of the things that started this ball rolling.) Does anyone have experience good or bad with the standalone recorders and is sequencing tightly integrated or does going the standalone route make this part harder?

 

[Re-Pete]

I believe Cakewalk and Roland now have an alliance. Cakewalk's Sonar was pretty good in it's day as DAW software & Roland (Boss) usually come up with a sturdy product. Also Roland has pretty good COSM simulation software too.
Not sure on the package as a whole but these products may be a little dull by today's standards but at least you aren't dealing with a v1.0 of something!

Myself? I've gone to Propellerheads Reason v 7.5. And upgraded my PC to Windows 8.1 64 bit. Working OK so far. Reason has it's limitations (you can't use VSTs but they do have their own version of such called Rack Extensions which can be pretty good but mostly fair - average from what I've seen), but they have steadily been creeping towards a full blown DAW system from the soft-synth of v1.0 all those years ago. Reason now has MIDI & CV implementation for those interested in that side of synth tweaking. I'm a sucker for Reason's SSL mixer interface & the software synths sounds. It usually takes a while before I paint myself into a corner using Reason & have to check out the tutorials or manuals, which is better than most other DAWs I have tried (Ableton Live leaves me cold with it's interface graphics & I could barely get a squeak out of it without having to consult, while older version of Cubase & Cakewalk had a CPU hungry attitude on PCs and would crash them )

Presonus has Studio One DAW software with it's hardware & it seems to be getting better reviews with later versions. If I was to go the hardware/firmware route I'd be looking further into Presonus' stuff.

 

[AndyG]

Standalone recorders are the modern, digital version of the old cassette 4-track ... they are designed with inputs, a mixer, and usually some built-in effects.  Handy one-stop solutions, but you actually have to play everything into it.  Virtual instruments would have to be run on another box anyway.

But ... that's the way it was done in the good 'ol days.  Some of these boxes can be had pretty cheap too (relatively speaking).  For example, the Tascam DP 32 costs the same as ProTools 11 software, and you get 32 tracks, 8 mic pre's, and built in processing.  Not bad for a stand-alone solution.

And most of these standalone recorders will have MIDI ins and outs, so they should be able to chase (or generate) MTC (MIDI Time Code).  As long as all of your devices are set to the same frame rate, it'll work without a hitch.  The rule of thumb here is that you choose 1 box to be your "master" (usually the recorder), and everything else slaves to it.

 

[swarfrat]

I'm OK with the tape abstraction. My drum machine parts suck anyway. I actually planned to record and replace  drum parts from a cajon inspired instrument. Because I can bang out basic rhythms but anything I do on a note grid sounds like robotica.

As long as I can bounce to a PC and I'm not using a device intentionally crippled so they could sell the same damned box for an additional price point I'm not willing to pay.

 

[stratamania]

One that has had quite good reviews and has a reasonable bang for the buck is http://www.zoom.co.jp/products/r24 or the R16 which is slightly smaller version. It does a bit of everything and may be worth checking out.

 

[swarfrat]

OK. Tascam is off the table - proprietary file formats.

 

[AndyG]

So .... if I understand correctly, you want to record on a device, then import those tracks into your PC?
I would assume that means you have a DAW of some sort already.

 

[swarfrat]

Yes. I do have Ardour now. But I mostly don't want to be unable to retrieve abandoned stuff down the roard, or be unable to bounce tracks in software, etc..

 

[AndyG]

Just checked out the Ardour site .... pretty cool software.

So why would you want to bother with an external recorder?  It would seem a decent USB or Firewire i/o is all you need.

 

[mayfly]

I've gone the Mac route with a two channel DAW (apogee duetII).  I use it as a recorder / mixer and it is very simple and intuitive.  And it 'just works' - no messing around.

I've done two released albums with it and many many demos.  it's a really great rig.

If you can get over the Mac hurdle, it's the way to go.

 

[swarfrat]

Hmmm ADATs are dirt cheap on eBay. Where's all my bootleg kids video VHS tapes?

Maybe ADAT isn't such a great idea. Tapes are fragile and spendy and SD is already what VHS was when ADAT came out. Ubiquitous and waiting to be replaced by he next great thing but that is not quite yet on the horizon. At least SD is really just an interface so we're likely to keep the format for some time as the underlying technology changes, until he interface itself becomes a limitation.

I think I'm saving for a Zoom R16. I usually get a chunk of cash at Christmas, and the discretioary blow money fund could cover it by then, but it means sitting tight on the wants list for a while.

 

[swarfrat]

R16 runs 400$ and records 8 tracks at a time. R8 only records 2 tracks at a time, but has a sequencer/sampler, drum machine, and costs $300.  I'm a bit torn. 8 tracks at a time 8 could record a whole band rehearsal, or hex guitar. But the sampler sequencer drum machine is more likely to be useful near term. I also found the Tascam can export all tracks in wav format too. Its more expensive but it also has more physical interface which I like.

 

[stratamania]

The R24 I believe has a drum editor and pads, and supports the same editing software for drums. It's a device I've been looking at myself but need some spare cash first

 

[swarfrat]

Yeah, just noticed that today. It only adds a month await. And less compromise. Now to quit looking at the gas thread for four months.

 

[stratamania]

:icon_thumright:

 

[swarfrat]

Minor monkey wrench. Zoom doesn't do MIDI. And the spinner looks like its slowing down on DP24.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

I had a Boss BR1180-CD for several years, worked great, but exporting to the computer was a pain, and syncing was nightmarish, even with Roland's Cakewalk Sonar.  I phoned them to get help and they confirmed that the BR unit had to be the master, and the DAW would be the slave.

I had it for about 7 years, then went completely DAW with Sonar.

 

[stratamania]

Minor monkey wrench. Zoom doesn't do MIDI. And the spinner looks like its slowing down on DP24.

Interesting workaround here if midi was planned for syncing.

http://www.henkybacker.com/2011/10/the-hidden-output-of-the-zoom-r8-and-r24/

 

[swarfrat]

At some point I'll consider such workarounds, but I'm trying to avoid designing them in from the get go. R16 runs about 400. DP24 runs about 500. That's about my hard limit. My soft limit is more like $400.

 

[Cagey]

If it was me (when it was me), I'd wait and save up to do it right. If you compromise now, you'll just end up spending more in the long run. It only costs a little more to go first class, and you're rarely sorry.

Hardware solutions are inherently limited. You can't rearrange/modify/expand/update circuitry. Software is the way to go. Far be it from me to recommend a Windows machine (hardcore Linux user since 2001), but you can get a whole lot more processing and I/O capability out of a Wintel machine than you can from a Mac for a helluva lot less money. The only caveat is you have to understand that it's not allowed on a public network. It's a stand-alone DAW, and that's it! No games, no productivity software, no internet, nothing. Pretend it's a football - it's only good for one thing.