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Seymour Duncan Zephyr Silvers

Let's not get bogged down in semantics. It was an exchange, not a gift.

And I wasn't saying they suck, I'm basically saying that if they did suck, I'd expect you to not talk about it, rather than shouting it from the rooftops, because if you did, you'd likely muddy your SD relationship ;)

So, it's a good sign that you're talking about them at all!
 
I can't imagine that they'd suck. I'm quite sure they sound great. Whether they're worth the money is another question.

It'd be like deciding you want to commit suicide and going into a building where they had two elevators you have to pay to ride. One costs $80 to go to the 42nd floor, and the other costs $500 to go to the 43rd floor. Yeah, 43rd floor's better, right?  :laughing7:
 
Cagey said:
I can't imagine that they'd suck. I'm quite sure they sound great. Whether they're worth the money is another question.

It'd be like deciding you want to commit suicide and going into a building where they had two elevators you have to pay to ride. One costs $80 to go to the 42nd floor, and the other costs $500 to go to the 43rd floor. Yeah, 43rd floor's better, right?  :laughing7:


Are you in one of your sleep-deprived phases, Cagey?  That's some morbid sh*t right there.  :laughing7:
 
No, I think I wasted almost 3 hours of my life sleeping last night, so I'm good.

I'm reminded of the megahertz wars between Intel and AMD, and how they'd price their CPUs. Depending on the batch, some could run slightly faster at a given power dissipation or how much of the chip actually worked. They test them, and bin them by performance, then charge more for those that could run faster or do more without exceeding safe operating levels. Put different part numbers on them, and watch the dollars roll in as enthusiasts would pay ridiculous amounts of money for very minor differences you couldn't discern without specialized benchmarking software. Manufacturing cost was the same, but some parts were golden and they'd rape the faithful just because they could. It's just always pissed me off. I'm not one to call people liars when they're too stupid to know any better, but these guys have been willfully deceiving the public for years on purpose.

But, to be fair, if you want to pay a 900% premium for a 3% increase in performance, who am I to stop you? It's a free country. Sort of.
 
Yeah, that's the open market right? All they did was price things according to what the market would bear. That's capitalism baby.
 
Do you remember a few years back, when Ernie Ball came out with their new, revolutionary, absolutely-perfect titanium strings? They had more bass, more treble, better bends, all the dutiful Ballheads came out (Slash counts for like, three of 'em) and said "OOOH! AAAH! EEEEE! Titanium!" And they apparently re-jiggered all their amps and effects, because obviously a string that is so much different is going to screw you pretty bad, trying to recreate things you had recorded with the stupid nasty ol' crap Ernies... and all was well. For no more than a year, maybe, cause then Ernie Ball came out with the COBALT string!

In Ball's own words:
Seeking to provide guitarists and bassists with a new voice, Cobalt strings provide an extended dynamic range, incredible harmonic response, increased low end, and crisp, clear highs.

In other words ALL your previous amp settings, overdrive, EQ - everything was ruined! They had more bass, more treble, better bends, and... all the dutiful Ballheads came out (Slash counts for like, five of 'em) and said "OOOH! AAAH! EEEEE! COBALT!"

Is there something to not get, here? :icon_scratch:
 
I'm not sure this compares. SD don't market the Zephyrs hardly at all, and as far as I can tell it's the first time pickups have been made with something other than copper. They're also priced way out of reach, and made to order. If they wanted everyone to replace their pickups over and over again, and Zephyrs are meant to be part of that strategy, then they're going about it very badly.
 
There are two issues here and it seems to me they sometimes get confused:

1. Are Zephyrs good PU's?

2. Are they somehow magical in a way that can't be duplicated because they use very expensive silver wire instead of copper, given that silver has, as I recall, something on the order or 5-7% better conductivity than copper (which means it's still less conductive than the next guage of copper)?

I suspect #1 might be quite true, but I'm rather skeptical regarding #2.
 
I agree, although if you can use a thinner gauge to get the same response, you can overwind a bit because the thinner wire leaves you more room on the bobbin, which changes things. Also, the winds end up closer together and closer to the magnetic field, so induction will change. So, the pickup ends up sounding "different". Better? That's subjective. I suspect if I lost my mind and paid $500 for a pickup, it would sound "better" no matter what and there would be no convincing me otherwise.
 
Cagey said:
I agree, although if you can use a thinner gauge to get the same response, you can overwind a bit because the thinner wire leaves you more room on the bobbin, which changes things. Also, the winds end up closer together and closer to the magnetic field, so induction will change. So, the pickup ends up sounding "different". Better? That's subjective. I suspect if I lost my mind and paid $500 for a pickup, it would sound "better" no matter what and there would be no convincing me otherwise.

Agreed. But note that the argument changes from a very simple "higher conductivity is better!" to "silver's somewhat higher conductivity allows a PU to be constructed with a magical combination of properties that can't otherwise be approached".
 
Right. But, who knows what evil lurks in the minds of marketing weenies? They're all about margin, because that's how they get paid. Reality has nothing to do with anything in their minds; presentation and perception is everything. If they could make a pickup that only cost $2 but sounded like [insert popular miracle worker here], you can bet your last nickel they'd sell them for $350 because that's what the market would bear, and one way or another they get a percentage of the profit. There really isn't much room for truth when you're abusing people that heavily. It's all about "spin".
 
Guys, this isn't a marketing-driven thing. Have you ever seen a magazine advert for Zephyrs?

It's really quite simple - for fun, they decided to go "what if money was no object?". They tried out lots of different things, and the Zephyrs are what they settled on. They cost that much because the materials are expensive, because there is no economy of scale, and because they spent a lot of time on "R&D" (playing around with cool stuff) that probably still hasn't been paid for.

They were launched over two years ago, with very little fanfare. Nobody is buying them. If it's "marketing weenies" that came up with this, they're terrible at their jobs.
 
Yeah, but... for how long ;)

It'd be fun, though, right - getting paid, to play with anything you want, money no object, until you get to your favourite pickup ever?
 
"Not marketing" is marketing, though. What percentage of aftermarket pickup users don't know that these are out there, available, for anyone who... really needs them? If they were to push them, it might just cause that which all aftermarket companies dread, which is - an actual comparison test. It's real, real easy to claim anything you want, as long as you don't have to back it. I have long thought it would be informative (and probably quite comical) to rope in Seymour Duncan, Larry DiMarzio, Jason Lollar, Bill Lawrence, Greg Kinman and however many others of these guys you wanted, and do some simple, subjective, LISTENING TESTS. Throw in some rock stars, and just test - which pickups sound the best?

In all these decades, with all the money, print, hype, shuck 'n' jive that's been expended on secret Russian wire warehouses and cryogenics and exact duplications of extinct bobbin compounds and all that - nobody's ever evaluated them by a vote of listening experts. The answer to "why is that?" is most informative - REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT IS. If the answer is "One sounds much better, but we won't tell you what it is" that tells you something; if the answer is "They all can sound fine, depending on what you're using them for" that tells you something too (the latter answer is my view). Given the apparently-endless number of makers - anybody can go into it, for under $1000 easy, and the information on how to make a great "P.A.F." or "Tele bridge" pickup is widely available - it's pretty clear that what music you play is more important. Like, two hundred and fifty-million times more important.

Although "magical thinking" is inherent in human makeup - yes, granny was a gorilla - it's also dead wrong. The fact that marketers and "true believers" can wallow in puddles of half-facts and mis-ascribed emotional reactions doesn't make any of it TRUE, no matter how popular it is. Inanimate objects contain no magic out here in the real world.

To the best of my knowledge, there have been no exact published facts regarding the qualities of silver wire that would lead to any sort of superiority. Greater conductivity might lead to slightly quicker response - if you were winding two pickups ecatly identical, one silver, one copper. But you drift right into the over/under conundrum, that is, using copper, you can already make a pickup that is too weak, too powerful, too trebly, too bassy... so what perceived weakness is the silver supposed to fix? (other than a too-full wallet...)

In looking at the Duncan and DiMarzio product lines in particular, I can't help but feel the owners, marketers and blurbists are just laughing at us... "good god, they'll buy ANYthing... what ELSE can we promise the li'l monkeys?" It's like walking down the corn-chip aisle of your favorite grocery superstore, marveling at what can be done with, and to, corn.... dozens and hundreds of products, all the same underneath. I could extend the metaphor to the end results, the earthly similarity of what happens after you buy the product and process it through your gorilla-based biosystem, but that might be rude.

:blob7:
 
If marketing is marketing, and not-marketing is marketing as well, then there is literally nothing a company can do that can not be called marketing. It just dilutes the term to nothingness and means you need a new word to mean what "marketing" used to mean until you changed it to mean "anything a company does".

That huge rant of yours, Stubby, seems to be based on refuting a claim made by SD are that these are the "best" pickups ever. No need, as they haven't made that claim. They're not saying it fixes a problem with copper-based pickups. I mean, why would they? Copper-based pickups are literally what keeps that company afloat. It'd be stupid to say that they needed fixing, especially when their given solution would be outside of most budgets. The line is "Zephyr products make new sounds we like. They're different."

On their own forum they have been grilled for two years on these pickups, and they're always very careful to say "they're expensive because that's just how much we need to charge for them", as well as "they're a different sound; you might like it or you might not". They've been screamed at so much that they're actually organising some sort of forum round-robin: receive the pickups, test them for a week or two, and send them on to the next guy.

As for the listening tests and why they haven't been done, you can answer it yourself: why haven't you done it? Whatever your answer is, that's pretty much everybody else's answer too.

Some people like a PAF. Some people like something more, like a JB. They clearly sound different to each other in a way that isn't just a case of tweaking your amp's EQ. The zephyrs are just that, again. Another different sound. The fact that they're so expensive doesn't represent that they're meant to be "better", it represents the fact that they've been designed without economic efficiency as a limiting factor. It really is that simple.

You might as well ask, what weakness of a Strat does a Les Paul fix? Or vice versa.
 
STOP MAKING SENSE!

duty_calls.png
 
Cagey said:
No, I think I wasted almost 3 hours of my life sleeping last night, so I'm good.

I'm reminded of the megahertz wars between Intel and AMD, and how they'd price their CPUs. Depending on the batch, some could run slightly faster at a given power dissipation or how much of the chip actually worked. They test them, and bin them by performance, then charge more for those that could run faster or do more without exceeding safe operating levels. Put different part numbers on them, and watch the dollars roll in as enthusiasts would pay ridiculous amounts of money for very minor differences you couldn't discern without specialized benchmarking software. Manufacturing cost was the same, but some parts were golden and they'd rape the faithful just because they could. It's just always pissed me off. I'm not one to call people liars when they're too stupid to know any better, but these guys have been willfully deceiving the public for years on purpose.

But, to be fair, if you want to pay a 900% premium for a 3% increase in performance, who am I to stop you? It's a free country. Sort of.

i never buy the top teir cpu because within a year i can buy something faster for less. also would never buy zephrs but if ya got the money,,, why not? i mean i can build a car that can beat a lambo at a lot of things for a lot less. but am i gonna tell some millionaire to trade in his quater million dollar ride becuase it was a waste of money? some people buy exotic cars. some but expensive watches. of coarse somebody will want to buy a $500 silver wound pickup...

as far as materials go. i think i remember reading an interview with seth lover and they have tried aluminum. i think it worked quite well but i have no idea where i read it to site things. maybe copper was cheaper in the 50's. maybe aluminum is the next secret for amazing pickups...
 
Here is a very old chart about what you could use:

Code:
metal      specific resistivity    notes
==================================================================================
copper     10.3                    used normally in guitar pickups
aluminum   15.97                   loss of high end compared to copper
gold       14.14                   this would be quite costly
silver      9.56                   would be brighter than copper/ more costly
platinum   63.82                   very costly/ loss of high frequency
molybdenum 31.10                   loss of high frequency
tantalum   74.60                   loss of high frequency
titanium  252.00                   incredible loss of high frequency
tungsten   33.22                   loss of high frequency
 
Jumble Jumble said:
Here is a very old chart about what you could use:

Code:
metal      specific resistivity    notes
==================================================================================
copper     10.3                    used normally in guitar pickups
aluminum   15.97                   loss of high end compared to copper
gold       14.14                   this would be quite costly
silver      9.56                   would be brighter than copper/ more costly
platinum   63.82                   very costly/ loss of high frequency
molybdenum 31.10                   loss of high frequency
tantalum   74.60                   loss of high frequency
titanium  252.00                   incredible loss of high frequency
tungsten   33.22                   loss of high frequency

how would you wind a tungsten pickup??? have you ever seen pure tugnsten?? it's hard as shit. they use it to weight golf clubs because it's a bit more dense than lead and is hard enough to transfer it's energy unlike lead. all the tungsten i've ever encountered is hard enough to shatter if impacted. this would be impossible to wind under normal situations. i mean you could maybe do it if you passed a calibrated current through it while winding to heat it but what would you wind it around?

as far as the "loss of highs" well, the resistance determines much of the Q and the Q is part of the damening in the circuit. it effects the height of the peak. if the whole circuit peak is in the "highs" (depnds on the inductance and cable capacitance and tone control) then yes there would be a loss of highs but technically the lower Q has a "wider bandwidth." which sounds like the opposite of less highs. it's just that we are used to a hump in the highs as guitar players and wider band width means less hump, and our amps and speakers dont reproduce frequencies that a wider bandwidth would give us anyway. the thing is that although an aluminum coil is more damped the pickup isn't the only damper. the pot value is also a damper and can easily be used to tune the circuit to accomodate a lower Q pickup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_factor
 
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