setup / Bridge Adjustment help needed new VIP build

[dglady]

Hi Everyone,
I'm assembling my 3rd warmoth creation.  The configuration is:
VIP carved top; hollow; HSH rout; wilkinson Gotoh Wilkinson Tremolo VS100; mahogany/quilt maple
Neck: conversion 24 3/4; 10-16 radius; strat; bubinga; ebony FB; black tusc nut; locking tuners

I've installed the tuners, neck and bridge.  I'm concerned about the bridge setup and I'm hoping I can get some pointers from you guru's.

First, it seems to me the neck is sitting too high compared to the body.  I have the same bridge on a warmoth strat and it was a piece of cake to set up; I have it set level with the body with the bottom of the bridge plate nearly on and level with the guitar body which is the way I like it....  But with this VIP body/neck combination, I've had to raise the bridge posts nearly 1/4 inch the strings will clear the neck.  I have the bridge saddles mostly flat against the plate...set to a 20" radius.  I have the springs set so the bridge is parallel with the neck (since the body slants down).  I'm using 10's; 3 springs parallel.  I do a rough tune up, play a few chords and do a couple of bends and many strings have gone flat.

Any suggestions for how to get a good setup of this bridge on this body neck combo.  I'm concerned I should have gotten a fixed bridge.  Any help would be extremely appreciated.

 

[Jesse]

Not as familiar with the VIP body so I don't know if the 720 Mod comes into play.  On a Strat body, the neck site high to compensate for the thickness of the pickguard, but you can have the pocket milled deeper.

Are you running any sort of shim in the neck pocket?  Sounds like your neck angle could be wrong.  You can try putting a shim at the headstock end of the pocket, which will lower the bridge height.

As far as the radius of the bridge, since the saddles on a Wilkinson are individually adjustable, you don't need to shoot for a particular radius.  What you want to do is run the trem down on the posts so the strings start to touch the top of the frets.  Then adjust the saddles until your strings perfectly match the radius of the frets at the last fret.  Obviously make sure the bridge is properly leveled when you do this.

 

[dglady]

Thanks Jesse for your reply.  I don't think there is a 720 Mod available for the VIP...but that's what I think I may need.  The neck is high enough to accommodate a pickguard (which I would not want on this body...it's carved topped/rear rout.  I've seen a lot of VIPs with the wilinkins trem.  It seems to me that the bridge is unstable having to be set high. 

 

[Slackjaw]

Sounds like you might have the angled neck pocket option... which is to accommodate a Floyd or standard TOM/STP. The Wilkinson is a bit flatter than a Floyd, which is why the height looks exaggerated. The VIP should have been ordered with a straight pocket to accommodate a standard tremolo...

 

[Slackjaw]

Also, as Jesse mentioned.... try raising the saddles and then you can lower the bridge plate and see where that gets you

 

[Jesse]

In another thread someone posted about receiving a body with a flat neck pocket that was supposed to be angled.  They sent it back in and Warmoth fixed it up for them.  Maybe you can do the same here?  I'd call customer service and give them your order number.  They can probably tell you how it was built.

 

[dglady]

Thank you Jesse and Slackjaw.  I removed the neck and reinstalled just to be sure I didn't goof up.  Now I've actually already lowered the bridge with the idea of raising the saddles as Jesse mentioned.  But I think it's going to require the saddles to be really high.  I didn't know there were options for neck angle.  I figured since I ordered the body, neck, bridge including bridge posts installed, the neck pocket would be cut accordingly.  This will really tick me off if after spending $$$ I have to hack it to get it right. 

 

[Slackjaw]

From the options page, if you scroll to "Bridge Routs", it appears that you should have received the correct flat pocket if you specified "Wilkinson Tremolo".

It looks like it should be a normal (flat) neck pocket except where noted as "Angled Pocket":

http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies/VIP.aspx

Did you custom order, or was this a Showcase item?

 

[dglady]

Thanks Slackjaw.  It was a custom order for the body, specifying wilkinson trem, bridge inserts installed, along with custom neck.  Do you happen to know if there's a way to measure the pocket to know which it is ... angled or straight?

It seems to me like the pocket back side (away from bridge, towards tuners) should be a bit higher to be in line with the bridge set near the body ... and in line to for nut to bridge.

I'm going to try lowering the bridge plate down and raising the saddles.  I'm guessing since the body curves down after the bridge posts, the plate should be set parallel (in line) with the neck rather than slanting downwards with the body.

 

[Cagey]

I'd like to see some pictures, what with their being worth a thousand words and all.

 

[Jesse]

Now I've actually already lowered the bridge with the idea of raising the saddles as Jesse mentioned.  But I think it's going to require the saddles to be really high.  I didn't know there were options for neck angle.  I figured since I ordered the body, neck, bridge including bridge posts installed, the neck pocket would be cut accordingly.  This will really tick me off if after spending $$$ I have to hack it to get it right.

I think that my advice is being misconstrued somewhat.  I'm not suggesting that you simply lower the trem baseplate and raise the saddles. I'm suggesting that you fix the neck angle.  This is not an unusual thing to do in a guitar setup.  You can do this with a shim. I like using a fairly heavy stock business card and cutting a little rectangle out of it.  Place it right behind the two front mounting holes. You can hold it in place with a piece of scotch tape.  See if that corrects the angle. You can experiment with different things as shims to get the angle where you want it. Or, call Warmoth and see if they'll let you send the body back to re-cut the pocket.  Point is that this should be free.

What I'm describing to you about lowering the trem is temporary and only for setting the bridge radius.  Lower the trem until the strings actually touch the frets and then adjust each saddle individually until it just contacts the fret. Your radius will then be perfectly matched to your neck.  Then, raise the trem back up to normal playing position.

 

[Slackjaw]

I would not want to place a shim at the back of the pocket, where the gap would be visible. Would definitely need to be fixed by Warmoth if indeed the neck pocket was cut angled by mistake. But we haven't established that yet. Everything might be correct, and it's just a matter of perception. I'm sure even a flat pocket would not be set up perfectly to have the saddles flat against the plate.

I'm with Cagey... pics would help!

 

[dglady]

I've reinstalled the neck. I've set the bridge to the neck at the last fret.  Set the neck relief to .002 and set intonation.  The bridge is now lower in the front and I think I want to tighten the springs to have it float downward some. 

It strikes me as odd that the neck overhang is high enough to put a pickguard on.  I was thinking the fretboard would be lower closer to the body. 

I've attached some pictures.

 

[Slackjaw]

I'll leave it to someone who has actually assembled a VIP to comment on your neck relief, but where your bridge is sitting in relation to the posts doesn't look overly high to me. I agree you should tighten the springs to bring the ass-end of the bridge down to align with the body, rather than your original notion of keeping the bridge level with the strings. Of course you will need to raise the posts slightly, as tilting the bridge back will lower your action some...

 

[Cagey]

I've reinstalled the neck. I've set the bridge to the neck at the last fret.  Set the neck relief to .002 and set intonation.  The bridge is now lower in the front and I think I want to tighten the springs to have it float downward some. 

It strikes me as odd that the neck overhang is high enough to put a pickguard on.  I was thinking the fretboard would be lower closer to the body. 

One of the many nice things about Warmoth parts is they're "blueprinted", which simply means they're built to the exact specifications of the original design. Even Fender doesn't usually make Fender parts as well as Warmoth does. For being the gold standard, Fender is as sloppy as a 2 year old with his own personal chocolate cake sans supervision. Ask anybody who works on a lotta guitars and they'll tell you. You can't depend on their dimensions at all. What you see when you take a Fender apart is almost frightening sometimes.

I say all that to say this: a standard Fender neck pocket is supposed to be .625" deep, and that's what Warmoth routes them to unless you ask for the "720 mod", in which case the pocket floor is routed .720" deep with a very slight angle. I think it's 2° or 3°, but you'd best check me on that. A standard Fender neck heel is .750" thick. This is to compensate for pickup and pickguard clearance. Pickguards are typically .090" thick. So, .625" + .090" = .715" which leaves you a .035" air gap in a standard installation. Works out well, especially if you're worried about slop, which Fender does. They pump those babies out at high speed/volume. Can't be bothered with accuracy. (which is why they use string trees, but that's another discussion).

What it all boils down to is if you're building something without a pickguard that uses a truly standard Fender neck pocket and neck, you're going to end up with a gap between a fretboard overhang that is .750" high at the bottom minus .625" of pocket depth, or .125" which is 1/8 of an inch in ancient terms. Even Mr. Magoo could see that kinda gap.

Is that a fretboard overhang or a cliff?​

 

[dglady]

I've managed to adjust the bridge down (the above picture)  from the original setting I had.  I'm not quite sure how I had it set at first (the wrong way http://unofficialwarmoth.com/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/shocked.gif ), but starting over with all adjustments has corrected my original concern.  The current setup (relief, intonation, etc) is very good.  I think when I get the backside of the bridge slanted down a bit, it should look better.

Cagey, thanks for the explanation regarding the overhang.

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.

 

[dmraco]

it may be the angle of the photo but is your neck sitting flush in the pocket??

 

[Jesse]

Wow it would really bother me if I had a guitar with a neck sitting that high.  I don't know if Warmoth can do anything for you, but I'd certainly ask.

It seems a bit odd to offer a carved top body that will never have a pickguard without a deeper neck pocket as standard.

 

[dglady]

DMRACO thanks for asking, but yes, the neck is tight in the pocket.  I removed it once because I was wondering the same thing.

Jesse It does bug me, but I'll get over it if nothing can be done about it (or that's just the way it is)...I definitely was envisioning the fretboard sitting lower.  Because the neck is high and the carved top body curves downward behind the bridge, had I known what I know now, I would have gone with a fixed bridge...and ordered a 12" radius neck.  It seems the trem can't be set up the way I'm used to doing so on strats  (very low, just above and level with the body).
I was after a carved top semi-hollow body...although it seems to me because I'm using a trem bridge with a big chunk of the body back routed out some (much) of the 'hollow' ambiance will be lost.  The guitar is beautiful and sounds nice acoustically and has great action and intonation.  I'm waiting on arrival of PUs so I can really hear it.

 

[pabloman]

Get that pocket lowered! You and that guitar deserve it.