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Rio Grande TX/BBQ pickups are too muddy...

MN_JDTele

Senior Member
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274
...sounding in my VIP.  I have a set in my JD tele and they scream.  Here is the setup:
Mahogany back, maple top, hollow VIP with an all rosewood neck.  500k pots.  Pickups sound terrible.  Way too muddy with no presence.  Is there any way to clean this up, or is there a better pickup out there for this wood combo?  PLEASE HELP!!!!

VIP3.jpg


VIP1.jpg
 
:icon_scratch:

Hmm check specs for BBQ:

BBQ Bucker : 12.5K Ohms

That's midway on the hot scale.

Now lesseee... you've got a hollow mahogany body paired to an all rosewood neck.

You're already in mud city with that wood config (which illustrates a point I've *tried* to
show here numerous times regarding wood choices and the resultant tone).  And no,
the maple veneer ain't enough.

Assuming your wiring is correct (double check!)...

So, what you're gonna need to do is either:

- get different set of PAFs which are vintage (low) output (~8k bridge ~7k neck)

or

- try using 1MegOhm pots in conjunction with resistors to open things up (500k is too muddy so perhaps 750k)
 
A buddy of mine who used to build guitars, says it is the neck that is buggering up the tone.  He recommended trying a 1-meg volume pot also, but I can't find any tall 1-meg pots  to fit thru the VIP body.  I was really surprised how poor these pickups sounded in this guitar.  I love them in my JD tele...but that has a solid maple neck.  Love the rest of the guitar, just need to figure out why the tone is so muddy...
 
Superlizard said:
Now lesseee... you've got a hollow mahogany body paired to an all rosewood neck.

You're already in mud city with that wood config (which illustrates a point I've *tried* to
show here numerous times regarding wood choices and the resultant tone).

- get different set of PAFs which are vintage (low) output (~8k bridge ~7k neck)

or

- try using 1MegOhm pots in conjunction with resistors to open things up (500k is too muddy so perhaps 750k)

You reply sounds a lot like what my friend said.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a better Humbucker to try?  I am about 99% sure the wiring is correct, but will double check that again also.
 
MN_JDTele said:
You reply sounds a lot like what my friend said.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a better Humbucker to try?  I am about 99% sure the wiring is correct, but will double check that again also.

Typically the hotter the pickup, the muddier the tone.  Just add that on top of a dark-toned guitar and voila - mud.

I recommend a pair of SD Seth Lovers (bridge+neck) or similar PAF where the bridge is about 8 KOhms and the neck about 7 KOhms...
that is standard for low output/vintage PAF territory.
 
That was the original neck I was going to go for, but I bought the all rosewood neck during the sale.  The wenge with ebony board is likely a bit brighter than my rosewood....
 
I agree you need to try humbuckers in the 8k range - maybe up to 9k and something with alnico V magnets. Alnico II's will contribute to a loose and muddy low end.

I'd go for a Bare Knuckle VHII set if it were me. For a less expensive option I'd go with Duncan '59's
 
Man, that is a bummer...
I have a set in my Warmoth V. 
Swamp ash body with maple cap & wenge neck with ebony finger board.
Sounds great and I love em'.  I am anxious to hear what you end up with.
Good luck &  :rock-on:
 
Try raising them as far as possible.  Try lowering them.  If that doesn't work - WIRE THEM IN PARALLEL!  If they are 4 conductor, that is.  I don't mean with each other (they should be like that already), but each coil relative to the other  in the same pickup.  Will still be noise cancelling.  I did it on my Dimarzio Air Classic and it makes it much brighter.  Makes a huge difference, and it will be a lot brighter and still hum cancelling.  It's free, and worth a shot.
 
Someone posted a thread the other day, where a guy, russian I guess, built an axe out of a shovel, it actually sounded good.

My point is this, in an electric guitar the sound comes from your pickups, so I doubt your mud is comming from your wood choice or the fact that it's hollow.

Try one of them Eddie VanHalen pups, they are in the 7k range and sound good and bright
 
I'll try mucking some more with the wiring and see what I can come up with.  Does anyone have a good link to a wiring schematic for 2 push/pull pots and a 3-way?  I used a combo of Seymor Duncan and Rio Grande wiring diagram.

http://www.riograndepickups.com/images/wiring/4con%20H%20H%20true%20splitting%20vv%20tt%203wy%206-13-06%20pdf.pdf

2h_1v_1t_3w_2pp.jpg
 
Putting them in parallel (spauldingrules suggestion) is a clever idea any may work for you depending how
your own tonal preferences go - just remember that parallel isn't as strong output-wise as series (standard).

But as you've already seen there are at least 2 examples of dudes here using a wenge neck
with ebony fretboard; this is a relatively bright combination.

http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Necks/NeckWoods.aspx

Wenge is:

wood_toneometer_6.jpg


Ebony is:

wood_toneometer_10.jpg


Your neck looks to be Brazillian Rosewood (correct me if I'm wrong):

wood_toneometer_5.jpg


If it's Indian Rosewood, even darker:

wood_toneometer_3.jpg


Next excerpt isn't directed at you specifically, but to the board in general:

Warmoth has tone charts for both neck and body woods for a reason.  While they
obviously aren't exact/scientific, they do serve as guidelines so you have an idea
of what the resultant tone of your guitar will be.  

I can't tell you how many times I've seen peeps here just pick out woods solely
based on how they *look*/*feel* - and brush aside any thought as to what said woods
will *sound* like.  Don't fall for this incorrect board "meme" parroted around here.

While having a killer good-looking guitar is certainly near the top of the priority
list, having good looks when it sounds like ass is a complete waste.  It would
be akin to having a really hot girlfriend who talks like Harvey Fierstein.

Ultimately one has to balance the guitar woods with the pickups... and even
then you must go further down the chain and balance the entire guitar with
your amp... and don't forget the speaker.
 
My neck is Indian Rosewood.  The brazillion Rosewood added a few too many pennies to the build  LOL.  I will double check the wiring tonight and see if I can figure out what is up.  Tried playing the guitar at practice again last night, and playing around with the amp settings some more, and still couldn't get the tone I want.  Sustain galore, but muddy as hell.  Does anyone see a problem with the seymour duncan wiring?
 
Well I pretty much totally disagree with all that - I had a rio grande pickup and it was pure mud too, I replaced it and the mud disappeared. Obviously guitars have their own individual tendencies which color the overall sound, but you just can't pretend you know which aspects of the guitar are to blame for which frequency response. I mean, you can, and obviously people do...

Change the pickups to something brighter, that's the short answer.
 
MN_JDTele said:
He recommended trying a 1-meg volume pot also, but I can't find any tall 1-meg pots  to fit thru the VIP body.

Are you sure?  Did you have to use mini-pots or something?  The 1 Meg pots i have in the Jazzmaster are the exact same size as standard 500k pots.  They're standard CTS pots.  You should at least try this before dropping some serious green on new p'ups.

BTW, if you do go the new p'up route, and you don't mind spending a little extra, i strongly recommend you consider the Lollar Imperials, or if you really want to max out the class factor, the Lollar Imperial low-winds.
 
Standard pots are too short to fit thru.  I could wire one in temporarily to test the impact of the pot on the tone, but I would have to remove some of the wood from the top to actually get the pot to mount thru.  Unless someone has a link to a tall 1-meg pot, but I sure couldn't find one!
 
tfarny said:
Well I pretty much totally disagree with all that - I had a rio grande pickup and it was pure mud too, I replaced it and the mud disappeared. Obviously guitars have their own individual tendencies which color the overall sound, but you just can't pretend you know which aspects of the guitar are to blame for which frequency response. I mean, you can, and obviously people do...

Change the pickups to something brighter, that's the short answer.

I don't know man, i don't think it's going out on too much of a limb to say that warm-sounding body wood + warm-sounding neck wood + high output (and therefore darker sounding) p'ups = mud.  Even the OP'er said that the same p'ups sounded way better in his other guitar with different wood.  Or am i missing the point of your post entirely?
 
I think he was agreeing to switch the pickup for something a little brighter.  I guess it is either that or a new neck!  LOL  :(
 
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