Recessed Wilkinson - am I missing something?

[NathanC]

Hey folks, great forum, only joining now because it seems all of my questions could be answered by a search except for this one. I just got a Warmoth body, basic strat, super simple, but got the recessed Wilkinson route, assuming this would allow me to, ya know, recess the Wilkinson. Bought a VS100 at the same time from Warmoth. Went to get everything set-up only to discover that the route seems to be misplaced, or maybe I'm doing something wrong? When installed, the baseplate is about a 1/16th of an inch forward of the route and the trem can't be pulled up at all. In fact I even tried to pull the trem up slightly just to see if the pitch could be raised and all it managed to do was put a crack in the clear coat... yay. As it stands now the "recessed" Wilkinson is even less use to me than a non-recessed Wilkinson as well as being a giant ugly hole in the guitar. Any tips? I can't see that I'm missing anything, since even raising the studs doesn't make the route more useable, and at the same time I can't imagine Warmoth making a mistake since it's all CNC stuff that's been used thousands of times. Hopefully this isn't the way it's supposed to be though since I have another body on order also with a recessed Wilkinson and that would be unfortunate. Any help would be great. Thanks! I've gone ahead and attached a picture below to show the issue.

 

[bagman67]

The placement of the studs relative to the recess does seem to be a little odd, but it also looks like you have the studs screwed in pretty darn deep.  If you back out the studs a little (which may in turn necessitate a crank on the truss rod or the insertion of a shim to get the action where you want it) you'll get the necessary altitude to make pulling up a viable undertaking.  As it is it looks like you have the base plate almost touching the face of the guitar.  Maybe it's just the angle, but even with the studs further south, you'd still be running into a little interference from the face of the guitar with the thing screwed down that far.


When you back the studs out to the desired height, you can lock them in place with one of the skinny allen wrenches - there's a screw inside each stud that can be run in until it bottoms out in the thimble, so it forces the threads on the outside of the stud to act as a clamp.

 

[NathanC]

The placement of the studs relative to the recess does seem to be a little odd, but it also looks like you have the studs screwed in pretty darn deep.  If you back out the studs a little (which may in turn necessitate a crank on the truss rod or the insertion of a shim to get the action where you want it) you'll get the necessary altitude to make pulling up a viable undertaking.  As it is it looks like you have the base plate almost touching the face of the guitar.  Maybe it's just the angle, but even with the studs further south, you'd still be running into a little interference from the face of the guitar with the thing screwed down that far.


When you back the studs out to the desired height, you can lock them in place with one of the skinny allen wrenches - there's a screw inside each stud that can be run in until it bottoms out in the thimble, so it forces the threads on the outside of the stud to act as a clamp.

Yeah I'm familiar with the operation of the studs. Sure the studs are in pretty deep, but I figured that's the whole point of the recess. If I wanted my bridge a significant distance off of the face of the guitar then there'd be no point for the recess and I'd be able to pull up anyway due to the gap like on a tradition non-recessed Wilkinson or Strat trem. I tried with two full turns of the studs backed out and that leaves a large gap showing plenty of threads on the studs and yes I'm able to pull up, but again the recess serves basically no purpose then as most of the pitch-up ability is merely due to the height of the bridge off the body, if that makes sense. I figured it should look more like in this image, where you can see room around the entire bridge plate meaning it can dip nicely into the recess.

 

[Cagey]

Actually, in all the time I've been here that's the first recessed Wilkie I remember seeing. I agree - it looks wrong and I can't see how that could work. The second shot with the curly top is what I'd expect to see. But, if you look on the sales site, this is the drawing they show of what a recessed route would look...

...which looks like what you got.

I must be missing something, too, because I can't imagine that working any way other than what you describe. And, if you raised the bridge to clear that body, you'd likely end up too high and have to shim the neck to get the strings back down, plus you defeat the reason for the recess.

 

[NathanC]

Actually, in all the time I've been here that's the first recessed Wilkie I remember seeing. I agree - it looks wrong and I can't see how that could work. The second shot with the curly top is what I'd expect to see. But, if you look on the sales site, this is the drawing they show of what a recessed route would look...

...which looks like what you got.

I must be missing something, too, because I can't imagine that working any way other than what you describe. And, if you raised the bridge to clear that body, you'd likely end up too high and have to shim the neck to get the strings back down, plus you defeat the reason for the recess.

You'd think though that at the very least the whole wide portion of the plate would be above the recess. Without them providing measurements in that picture for distance from studs to recess it's hard to know. I mean at this point even if I raise the bridge up to 1/8", which is the usual height for non-recessed I see recommended, at most I'd gain a tenth of a step of travel perhaps? Is that really the benefit of a huge, ungainly route in my guitar, an extra fraction of a fraction of travel? The picture doesn't really show the size of the route well, it extends at least 1/2" past the rear of the bridge and is quite large. I'll paint it black eventually, but I mean it really is giant and I can't figure out why if nothing can actually enter it.

Anyway, I'll take more pictures and play around with things when I get home from work, but I am surprised, if mine is correct, that this hasn't been mentioned often before. I've found a couple other posts that mention something similar:
http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=17920.0

So I finished my very first Warmoth build a couple of months ago, and it's been an awesome experience! However, I did always think the bridge routing looked a bit weird. While I was browsing the forums today, I saw some pictures of some other guitars with the same routing and it looks very different! My bridge does not cover the recessed rout whereas the bridge completely covered the routing on other people's guitar!

Any thoughts into this? :S Did I mess something up? Or did Warmoth make a mistake! Or is this some kind of new routing? :S

Also this post, which isn't my experience at all:
http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=6215.0

I've got the recessed Wilky on one of my Strats.
The hole is about the same size as the standard Fender trem. The recess is only about 1/8" on the top, and it's the same size as the trem base plate. Can't tell it's a recess from a few feet away, and there's not any difference that I can hear.

Also in that thread is this post, which is similar to my issue, except it's the plate contacting the top:

there is something different about the routing though. at least my first recessed wilkinson had a slightly bigger or different routing.
I think they made a mistake on my second, almost as if the hole is 'off'. even though there is a recess, the base plate won't even go beyond the 'top' of the guitar in the recessed area when pulling up, since the tremblock almost immediately hits the inside off the trem hole. it really bugs me 

 

[TBurst Std]

I found some pics of a recessed Wilkinson route with a Wilkinson and they rested in the route in the few you could discern. The latest was from 2011, so needless to say, things may have change there.

Have you tried calling the W?

 

[NathanC]

I found some pics of a recessed Wilkinson route with a Wilkinson and they rested in the route in the few you could discern. The latest was from 2011, so needless to say, things may have change there.

Have you tried calling the W?

Haven't had a chance to call, been emailing with "Spike" and he's been fairly unsupportive other than telling me "these issues usually resolve after set-up" and that he'll gladly cancel the other recessed rout body I have on order for a $100 restocking fee. Is calling a better option? Anyone in particular I can contact that might be more supportive? The website clearly states "Recessing the bridge allows it to be mounted low in the face of the guitar and allows you to pull up on the bar to raise the pitch." Seems pretty obvious this isn't low in the face of the guitar. Furthermore I'm encountering some pickguard clearance issues with the bridge which seem to add further credence to the studs being too far forward of the rout. Either everyone except me is smart enough to not order a recessed Wilkinson, or I'm running into an issue that very few people have.

 

[TBurst Std]

Calling is ALWAYS a better option. Also have you sent them your pics?

 

[Logrinn]

Here's a thought.
If the saddles are mounted "normally" on the bridge (which they seem to be on the pictures) does the strings intonate properly?
If, for some reason Warmoth have moved the placement of the stud holes slightly towards the neck, then you would have problem with intonation - unless you moved the saddles into an "extreme" postion.
But if it intonates properly, then it would seem that the recessed cavity might have been moved. Which would seem improbable, but one never knows ...

And another thought.
Could it be that the Wilkinson tremolo has changed its specs?

 

[NathanC]

Here's a thought.
If the saddles are mounted "normally" on the bridge (which they seem to be on the pictures) does the strings intonate properly?
If, for some reason Warmoth have moved the placement of the stud holes slightly towards the neck, then you would have problem with intonation - unless you moved the saddles into an "extreme" postion.
But if it intonates properly, then it would seem that the recessed cavity might have been moved. Which would seem improbable, but one never knows ...

And another thought.
Could it be that the Wilkinson tremolo has changed its specs?

The saddles seem to intonate OK as seen in some of those pictures (which I now realize are gigantic - wish this forum resized images better). But I can also see where if the studs were 1/8th-1/16th of an inch farther rearward they would still intonate fine as well. The basic VS100 hasn't changed in forever as far as I know, and I bought it from Warmoth so I'd expect it to be compatible. Looking at the below picture it's just so obvious to me that if the studs were slightly rearward it would a) allow the bridge to dip deeper into the recess, b) bring the block farther back making contact occur with the inner wall later, and c) clear the bottom layer of the pickguard (difficult to tell, but the black bottom layer of the guard is getting pinched by the front of the bridge even though it's hard hard hard against the neck heel). Sent a few more pictures to Warmoth just for them to confirm that this is in fact the way the rout is supposed to be, then I guess we'll go from there.

 

[Logrinn]

Well I hope you get it sorted out.

And here's a image resizing tip:
Add width=size after the img code (or height).

[IMG]Imagelink[/IMG]

This will make the image 1024 pixels wide.

 

[Masta C]

I was interested in the recessed Wilkinson when I first heard about it, but I came to realize it really isn't much of an upgrade in real-world use. 

Some guys do custom routs, like the one you're imagining, that work well to set the bridge lower in the body, but all of the Warmoth examples I've seen look just like yours above with the front of the baseplate overlapping the body.

Also, you'll have to trim the pickguard if you want to put your Wilky down as low as you can get it.  Here's a "normal" setup for reference (courtesy of fellow member Cagey):

 

[thearmofbarlow]

The example image of another "correct" rout looks quite a bit better for a number of reasons.

- The recess is painted, and contrasts less with the bridge.
- It's a different design that follows the contours of the bridge.
- The saddles on that bridge are quite a bit further back.

All of these things contribute to making it look like your rout is incorrect when it actually is not.

You have the bridge basically sitting on the deck. You cannot do this and expect to pull up. Wilkinsons, recessed or not, are still a vintage design. They are not Floyd type recesses that allow for a lot of pull, they are simply there to give a little bit more room in the rear. If you want it to be low you'll get a half-step of pull at absolute best even with the recess. For more it has to sit up higher to clear that lip in the recess.

Yeah I'm familiar with the operation of the studs. Sure the studs are in pretty deep, but I figured that's the whole point of the recess. If I wanted my bridge a significant distance off of the face of the guitar then there'd be no point for the recess and I'd be able to pull up anyway due to the gap like on a tradition non-recessed Wilkinson or Strat trem. I tried with two full turns of the studs backed out and that leaves a large gap showing plenty of threads on the studs and yes I'm able to pull up, but again the recess serves basically no purpose then as most of the pitch-up ability is merely due to the height of the bridge off the body, if that makes sense. I figured it should look more like in this image, where you can see room around the entire bridge plate meaning it can dip nicely into the recess.

You apparently are NOT familiar with the operation of the studs.

The recess is not there to give you Floyd-level ability to pull up with the bridge sitting on the top of the guitar. It's there to give you more room when the bridge is set up as normal.

The issue here is that you expected something that doesn't exist.

Also, FYI, do watch for the stud mounts creeping up out of the body. They have a tendency to do that. Filling the body holes in slightly with thin strips of wood and CA will keep that from happening.

Source: Been using this type of bridge for about 15 years on about half a dozen guitars.