Quarter Sawn Wood

[Superlizard]

So it would seem, unless you actually read what Tommy says, which is "I think they will affect the overall tone of the instrument". Not that they do, or that he's heard it. He thinks they will. He doesn't know, and hasn't heard it yet himself. So, here we have another one spreading a myth with not only no factual base, but with no experience in the matter.

I'm not saying the guy's opinion isn't valid. Everybody's is. But, here he's clearly just pulling it out of his ass.

I read his statement as "matter of factly"... as in, "I think the sky is blue."  He's using the term "think" in a polite sense; as if being asked his opinion (which he is):

"You asked for my opinion, so here it is:  I think SS frets will affect the overall tone."

...not "think" as in, "I've never tried this; I *think* it might work".

Doubtful he's pulling anything out of his ass considering he works for USACG; why wouldn't he have heard SS himself?  Again, he works there, they make necks with SS frets, etc...

There are a lot of people who somehow feel there's some kind of harm or shame visited upon them if they admit they don't know something. Not sure why that is, but I believe it usually has to do with a basic insecurity about the veracity of one's knowledge in general. Silly. If someone doesn't know something, they should just say so and if it bothers them, they should see what they can do about being educated. It's not hard. Many people are happy to share what they know.

  This is true and along those lines I've seen people here who assume that just because
they can't hear a particular aspect (even though others claim to), then it must not exist.  Granted, there's BS out there, but many times, due to lack of hearing aspects, said people
dismiss what is actually fact for BS.

 

[Cagey]

Doubtful he's pulling anything out of his ass considering he works for USACG; why wouldn't he have heard SS himself?  Again, he works there, they make necks with SS frets, etc...

Maybe he's never used/played/heard a USACG (or anyone else's) neck with stainless frets actually installed on a guitar. I've worked on missile flight control mechanics and propulsion systems components for Hughes Aircraft and Howmet Turbine, but I've never used a missile. I've worked on controls systems for the automation that builds Raytheon's radars, but I've never actually used radar components for anything other than cooking.

So, while my opinions about the efficacy of those systems might sound educated and my experience would seem to indicate I have intimate first-hand knowledge of the things, they would still be hearsay. The guy on the destroyer who can't get one of those missiles to hit the broad side of a shoreline would know more about whether or not those guidance, propulsion and monitoring systems were worth a tinker's damn.

Many examples like that exist. The girl next door is a computer programmer who specializes in large-scale inventory control systems for major food distribution chains, yet she's never controlled or managed an inventory of anything larger than her fridge. The guy across the street is a mechanical engineer at GM specializing in suspension systems, but he's never owned or driven a Corvette. On and on.

I've seen people here who assume that just because they can't hear a particular aspect (even though others claim to), then it must not exist.  Granted, there's BS out there, but many times, due to lack of hearing aspects, said people dismiss what is actually fact for BS.

I believe that, having seen it many times first hand. Sometimes it's a hearing deficiency, but most often it's simply an inability to recognize what is or isn't being heard. For instance, my roommate thought he had a great set of speakers on his home entertainment system, and no amount of pointing out what was missing would change his mind until I brought home a set of Klipsch Fortes. The change in dimension/separation of the sound field, frequency response, dynamic range, etc. was dramatic, and frankly, pissed him off because he'd been led down the rosy path by the salesman who sold him what he had.

There's also the substantial power of suggestion, which can cause someone to either hear something that is or isn't there, or misidentify what they think they recognize and attribute it to a cause/effect relationship that doesn't exist.

For example, somebody could cut their strings off and open up the guitar to change a filter cap from a .022uf cap by Sprague to a .022uf cap by Mallory, reassemble and restring the thing, and notice that it sounds brighter, more lively and [add glowing list of adjectives here]. The change in tone is undoubtedly due to the new strings vs. the crusty month-old biohazards that were on there, but amazingly, many guys will disregard well-known laws of physics and say it's because .022uf from Sprague is somehow different than .022uf from Mallory. Go figure.

That kind of thing is rampant in the musical instrument field, where there are often numerous variables involved in the creation of a particular sound. The problem is exacerbated by the woeful lack of objective testing. Numerous variables are mixed and matched haphazardly, stirred in with hearsay, myth and legend, and supposedly definitive conclusions are drawn from the results of what is nothing more than random chance.

To be fair, that even applies to my perception that SS frets don't make any difference in tone. The guitars I've played/heard with SS frets have never had any other frets on them, and vice-versa. So, really, how do I know they don't make a difference? I'm comparing those guitars to other guitars that while perhaps very similar, still include dozens of other variables that have an effect on how the instrument sounds.

The only thing I have going in my favor is experience that extends longer than many players have been alive, which has taught me what kinds of things make what kinds of differences, and I don't hear anything I can attribute to SS frets. Of course, I could be wrong. But, empirically speaking, those around me with similar experience also do not hear a difference, so my perception gets reinforced. If there were more outliers in the data set, I'd be less certain of my conclusions.

 

[stubhead]

Tommy doesn't work for USACG, he owns it... and he made my last few necks with stainless frets, no problem! It just costs a bit more, as they do on Warmoths. He has a personal preference for tone, that's all. But this?:

But, here he's clearly just pulling it out of his ass.

Cagey, he's cut wood for a few thousand more guitars than you ever will - and built many dozens to the finished point. What the hell's wrong with you? Tommy Rosamond has no reason to lie about any of this. USACG supplies wood to many of the high-end Fenderish builders in the business (Ron Kirn, Bill Crook, etc.), and he's friends with some of the top luthiers in the world - and you're who? Clearly, you're just pulling the following statement out of your ass:

But, here he's clearly just pulling it out of his ass.

:hello2:

I did notice that Carvin is now charging $80 more for SS frets, but then they do a whole level/crown/polish on their guitars, which every Warmoth, USACG, Gibson & Fender actually need to play ideally. If you're happy with Warmoth's fret ends, you just must not play very much, or you just don't care to have a finished guitar. I can't imagine a professional player using Warmoth or USACG who wouldn't get his frets finished. And you can't do it properly until you've had the guitar set up, and settled in, and you've decided on string gauges etc., which makes those "factory PLEK" jobs pretty silly. But then most people don't care anyway, they'd rather moon over their guitars than play them.

SS frets do take longer, I don't mind for ME because I have evolved to using abrasive paper on almost all aspects of fretwork. I just know how it acts, but there are many different ways to get the same result of perfect frets. Diamond files work too, I'd buy some if I wanted to work on other people's guitar for money, but fretwork is tedious and low-paying - I'd rather be playing music. I'd guess that SS frets are somewhere around 3 times harder than nickel. I could definitely see charging $80 more to do a full level/crown/polish on stainless frets, it'd take 4 hours more to do it right. I have read many times that they "don't wear" which is ridiculous, all you have to do is play 4-6 hours a day for several months and you'll see it.
Nothing wears if you leave it hanging on the wall... :laughing7:

Regarding tone, it seems to me that the SS frets are noticeably "brighter", but only in the sense of balance - they still have plenty of bass, mids etc, it's not like they cut those frequencies AKA "thin." I'm always amazed at people who seemingly don't have tone controls, or they won't use them or something - all those Epiphone & Blackheart 5w amps I guess. There is nothing about the "SS fret tone" that can't be compensated for by turning your amp's treble knob from "4" to "3."  :icon_scratch: And nothing about the difference between ebony & rosewood, or trussrods, or tuners that can't be adjusted for, unless your amp sucks. There are people who are experts because they can play "Smoke on the Water" (wrong) with their five Warmoths, through their $99 Line6 amp... oh never mind. :icon_tongue:

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaster-discussion-forum/36611-neck-%3B-warmoth-bhefner-usacg.html
http://www.crookcustomguitars.com/paislies.php
http://www.ronkirn.com/tutorial/index.htm

 

[AutoBat]

this entire thread has gone to the trolls

 

[Cagey]

I'm not calling Mr. Rosamund a liar by any stretch of the imagination. Where did you get that? I'm simply going by what he said, which strongly implies that he doesn't know if there's a tonal difference. And in light of what I said in my last post about my own opinion of the situation, I can understand why he'd be equivocal on the subject. The only way to really know what the difference is would be to completely build up a guitar or three using one kind of fret, say nickel-steels, have a number of players play a number of tunes on them, then re-fret those same instruments using SS frets with equal dimensions without changing anything else to do the same thing and compare the two sets of results. Has anybody done that? I tend to doubt it, so everything is going to be an opinion, not an objective statement of fact.

I didn't know Mr. Rosamund was God's cousin. And yes, I could be nobody. But, I might be Al Dimeola, or Jeff Beck, or Mark Knopfler. How do you know? And what would it change? <grin>

 

[Cagey]

this entire thread has gone to the trolls

No, there's no trolling going on. But, it has gone off topic, which is dramatically different. So, we'll all just agree that I'm right, and return to the subject at hand <grin>

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I often wonder how much of these conversations are just a difference of perception.  With the quarter sawn vs flat sawn maple for neck wood, there is no doubt that there is a difference in the maples performance as a wood.  But with respect to the guitar neck, this gain in performance doesn't matter.  It is like having boots that are for a space suit or a pair of flip flops, the bug you just smashed with them doesn't know about the difference in performance.

However, If I am going to spend 200 - 500 dollars on a neck, I want to about know any detail that might be good or bad about the purchase.  And finally, if whatever material I buy the neck out of is what makes me happy, I am going to enjoy playing it more, and my playing will probably sound better because of it. 

Of the guitars I have, I honestly can't tell if the frets are stainless or if the truss rod is a different construction unless I am directed to focus on that.  And then it becomes a matter of perception again.  Are the frets brighter, or do I just think that?  My opinion is that the individual trees that the instrument was made of, and the process used to manufacture those parts will ultimately determine if it a good sounding/playing instrument.  Issues about which frets or truss rods (or other minor details) will be overshadowed by these things.
Patrick

 

[lafromla1]

I just happen to like that quartersawn wood grain typically flows with the grain on the back of an unpainted guitar bodies and just looks nice overall.

 

[Cagey]

I often wonder how much of these conversations are just a difference of perception.  With the quarter sawn vs flat sawn maple for neck wood, there is no doubt that there is a difference in the maples performance as a wood.  But with respect to the guitar neck, this gain in performance doesn't matter.  It is like having boots that are for a space suit or a pair of flip flops, the bug you just smashed with them doesn't know about the difference in performance.

Quite right. The difference between reality, perception and pertinence is often blurred on guitar forums. The reality is there's a difference in shear strength between quartersawn and flatsawn wood of any species. The perception is that it can make a difference in a given application, and the pertinence is whether or not it actually does when if comes to guitars. For the one paying the bills, all those things are important whether they have any effect on performance or not.

However, If I am going to spend 200 - 500 dollars on a neck, I want to about know any detail that might be good or bad about the purchase.  And finally, if whatever material I buy the neck out of is what makes me happy, I am going to enjoy playing it more, and my playing will probably sound better because of it. 

Also right. Why spend the money otherwise? There'd be no point.

Of the guitars I have, I honestly can't tell if the frets are stainless or if the truss rod is a different construction unless I am directed to focus on that.  And then it becomes a matter of perception again.  Are the frets brighter, or do I just think that?  My opinion is that the individual trees that the instrument was made of, and the process used to manufacture those parts will ultimately determine if it a good sounding/playing instrument.  Issues about which frets or truss rods (or other minor details) will be overshadowed by these things.

And so it goes. Has anybody noticed that the great guitar players that are putting their names on instruments from the big manufacturers aren't asking for exotic materials, unusual hardware, or esoteric construction techniques? The Eric Clapton, Eric Johnson and Robin Trower signature guitars from Fender are about the most boring things you could buy, unless grossly overpaying for instruments is exciting for you. In fact, most of us, not knowing their "pedigree", would immediately start replacing hardware on them, if not going further in order to make them into decent guitars.

 

[Mor Paul]

My only experience with SS frets is with Guitlouie's guitar. I didn't know it has stainless frets from the sound, I knew from the feel, and that means, to me, that I'm a fan of them. I won't say there is no difference, all I'll say is I'm not familiar with them.

 

[drewfx]

If you use quarter-sawn stainless steel frets like I do, they're both stronger and less bright and coldly metallic sounding than regular flat-sawn SS frets. :icon_biggrin:

 

[stubhead]

Just make sure that when you cryogenically treat your stainless frets, you've got the freezer aligned on the north-south axis so that the molecules will run perpendicular to the fretwire, so that they come out parallel to the neck. Then when you play the guitar, you have to line up your body either east-west or west-east, or the sub-molecular re-zhooterative nodes will screw with your vibrato. Kant* have that.

*(http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/ikmee10.txt)

 

[RockStarNick]

I feel like people automatically assume that a Standard Thin neck, with flatsawn maple. is doomed to fail.

If there were that many failures with them, Fender would only use quartersawn - but they don't.

If there were that many failres, why would Warmoth even offer it?

 

[Cagey]

Good point. They're the ones who'd have to suffer the market consequences and make good on warranty claims, so it behooves them to meet certain levels of quality, performance and longevity.

 

[drewfx]

It's one of those questions where, if something is already strong enough and stable enough to do its job adequately, does making it "stronger" make any difference? Maybe it does, but probably it doesn't. Or maybe it does, but only in special cases.

 

[NQbass7]

The problem with all these arguments about tone is that half the time it's just a subjective interpretation, which is susceptible to the fact that the human brain isn't very good at objective evaluation.  Give people two bottles of wine with the same wine but different price tags, and they'll tell you the more expensive one tastes better.

If you start out thinking that there's a difference between the tone of quartersawn and flatsawn, or that there's a difference between SS frets and nickel frets, then you will hear a difference EVEN IF they sound identical.  Your brain will interpret the soundwaves differently even if they're 100% identical soundwaves.  This is not golden ears - hearing a difference when others can't.  This is about hearing a difference when there isn't one.

So unless you give me two sound files that aren't labeled as far as which one was made with SS frets and which one was made with nickel frets, I'm not going to trust the comparison.  Because just knowing which one is on the guitar can skew the opinion and make you think that one's better when it's not.

I don't know why more companies don't do that, it would save so many people from spending loads and loads of money trying to get tone that doesn't even really exist outside their heads... oh wait.

 

[NovasScootYa]

So it would seem, unless you actually read what Tommy says, which is "I think they will affect the overall tone of the instrument". Not that they do, or that he's heard it. He thinks they will. He doesn't know, and hasn't heard it yet himself. So, here we have another one spreading a myth with not only no factual base, but with no experience in the matter.

I'm not saying the guy's opinion isn't valid. Everybody's is. But, here he's clearly just pulling it out of his ass.

There are a lot of people who somehow feel there's some kind of harm or shame visited upon them if they admit they don't know something. Not sure why that is, but I believe it usually has to do with a basic insecurity about the veracity of one's knowledge in general. Silly. If someone doesn't know something, they should just say so and if it bothers them, they should see what they can do about being educated. It's not hard. Many people are happy to share what they know.

There is a tonal difference between nickel silver frets and stainless steel frets and it is subtle. I suppose if you used nickel and SS to make bridge saddles and nuts the differences would become more noticeable. What's important is if you want to build a first class instrument you better pay attention to the many subtle and wide margins between all parts.
To many purists it's a psychological difference between SS and nickel because they've "heard" something negative from someone who "heard" something from someone who "heard" something and so on. Not one Fender purist has ever mentioned fret material on any of my instruments unless I informed them beforehand the neck was Warmoth with SS wire.
Because most of my builds start with an original 70s Fender body I got tired of predisposed knuckleheads asking if I had the original neck without ever playing the instrument so I learned long ago to shut-up about the neck and let the instrument do the talking. On the other hand some of these purists do have an ear and knowledge of construction and for them it is best to use SS wire with a softer tone wood just as it would be prudent to help brighten up nickel wire with ebony, etc.  
Being as my instruments are built to play easily and to sound their very best and to last a long while I use SS, it is the only choice for me.

 

[stubhead]

Because Leo Fender's design parameters included using the cheapest stuff he could find*, at least 90% of the "classic" Fender necks were flatsawn, because that uses up the tree most efficiently. The only reason you will ever find a quartersawn 50's or 60's Fender neck is because it was made that way by accident. If your intent is to sound better than Hendrix, Clapton, SRV, Eric Johnson etc. you'd probably be better off practicing instead of dicking around on the internet,
because the direction of the wood grain ain't what's holding you down, Junior. ccasion14:

I pretty much think you could put Warmoth's double truss rod into a cardboard tube and it wouldn't bend, which is one of the reasons the sniffer's don't like them - the rod is supplying a larger percentage of the vibrations to-and-fro vis-a-vis the wood, compared to a single-rodded neck.

(Parameter #2: Unskilled, cheap labor. Para #3: No fancy tooling, standard furniture machines only (Coweco machine to wind pickups....)

 

[NovasScootYa]

I pretty much think you could put Warmoth's double truss rod into a cardboard tube and it wouldn't bend, which is one of the reasons the sniffer's don't like them - the rod is supplying a larger percentage of the vibrations to-and-fro vis-a-vis the wood, compared to a single-rodded neck.

When it comes to a flat swan standard thin vs a flat swan Fatback profile the standard thin is a cardboard tube. If you loosen the strings on a double rod flat swan standard thin neck it tends to back-bow a bit especially if it sits a few hours, that's why it's best to back off the rod with standard thins. Failure to do so could cause the fret board to spit some frets a few thousandths.
Thick or thin it is always best to use quarterswan wood to help counteract stress, I'm sure Leo Fender or any furniture maker would agree.
As opposed to the channel routed for a single rod the larger channel for the double rod means less wood that's why it's best to opt for a thicker neck to offset the loss of wood, tone and strength. The double rod is not anchored to allow the wood to expand and contract unrestricted. Having not to adjust an instrument every other day means more time for practice, practice, practice.
For most players rod designs are out of sight, out of mind and almost never become an issue providing an instrument plays and sounds exceptionally well.

 

[Cagey]

I don't know. I live in Michigan, where we have extremes of hot/cold/wet/dry, which is roughly 16 kinds of climate over the course of a year, and I've always run thin necks without any trouble at all, using both single and double truss rods. But, the necks have always been finished, so maybe that's my saving grace. The ones I've had trouble with have been the baseball bats Gibson makes, but I understand they use the lowest grade lumber they can get away with and still be able to identify the species, so there's no surprise there. My Melody Maker and SG, as well as some of my friend's Explorers, Firebirds, and Moderns were all problem children. They're the only guitars we've ever had that seemed to respond to the weather, other than some early junkers from the '60s & '70s that were basically made out of firewood. Maple is supposed to be mobile as an ant colony, but I've never had trouble with those necks. Not that I think maple is stable - I know it's not - but still. And in all cases, the maple has been finished.