Quarter Sawn Wood

[NSC217]

I was told by 2 people so far that Birds Eye maple is generally more dense and brighter than regular hard maple. Is this always the case?

And how would the difference in brightness between 'birds eye and regular hard maple' differ from 'quarter sawn hard maple and flat sawn hard maple'?

 

[Patrick]

Quartersawn maple and flatsawn maple are one and the same.  The only difference is the grain is parallel to the fingerboard for flatsawn and perpedicular in quartersawm.  Warmoth uses eastern hard rock maple for necks.

no sonic difference coming from the guys at Warmoth

 

[SkuttleFunk]

I was told by 2 people so far that Birds Eye maple is generally more dense and brighter than regular hard maple. Is this always the case?

they actually said this to you and didn't crack up laughing in the process? WOW  :redflag:

... I sense you were in the presence of a couple future politicians  :sad:

all the best,

R

 

[NSC217]

I don't think you guys know what you're talking about. They are cut differently and that makes a big difference. If you take a very think piece of wood (plank) and try to bend it from the flat sawn side it will bend easily. If you turn it around and try to bend it from the quarter sawn side it won't move. Thus, the more stability from quarter sawn. Warmoth didnt say anything about quarter sawn to me. They just told me that birds eye maple is brighter than regular hard maple because it's more dense

 

[Cagey]

I don't think birdseye maple is any harder than non-figured maple. It comes from the same species of tree, although nobody's been able to say for certain what causes the various figuring seen in maple. Where the "hardness" myth may have started is that it's more difficult (harder) to achieve a good machined surface. Birdseye, curly, burled and wild maple all have a much greater tendency to "tear out" than straight-grained pieces, which can easily wreck a piece that has a good amount of work into it. Even straight-grained maple will tear out if you don't have very sharp high-speed tooling.

Incidentally, for those who haven't heard of it, "tear out" is a tendency in some hard woods to tear, rather than cut. It creates a rough hole in the surface, as if it had been torn apart rather than cleanly sliced. It's essentially unrepairable unless you can tolerate the obvious blemish any filler material would create. You see it most frequently in routing, and is responsible for the coinage of many highly imaginative cuss words by otherwise mild-mannered woodworkers <grin>

 

[SkuttleFunk]

I don't think you guys know what you're talking about.

you're saying that in jest, right??  :icon_scratch:

you never mention anything about STIFFNESS qualities of different cut orientations in your first post, but you do babble quite incorrectly about tonality differences between two different cuts of what is essentially the same wood.

sorry, I thought you created this thread because you were seeking factual information. my bad. next thread ...

R

 

[stubhead]

Two different species of tree grown next to each other with the same water supply, soil minerals and sunlight supply can sometimes be more alike than two identical species of tree grown under different conditions. It's actually kind of a crapshoot, which is one (another?) very good reason to buy either your wood, or your finished necks, from a reputable place. There are wood suppliers who specialize in the higher-end woods, and there are companies (like Warmoth, Taylor, USA Custom, etc.) who buy from them. The rest goes to Asia. Though, a high-end custom shop Ibanez is going to be made from much better wood than a low-end Fender, but generalities get quite meaningless - in general.

One of the (I think valid) criticisms of the custom shops at Fender and Gibson is that they don't seem to put much effort into wood quality, which is odd when you think about what a guitar is made of. People like Suhr & Anderson & Hahn & Grosh & Tyler all make some really accurate "Tele" and "Strat" copies (as well as others) and they mostly use the same bridges and tuners and pickups.... wonder what they do? :toothy12:

http://www.detempleguitars.com/temp/CATALOG_ITEMS/DeTemple_52.php

I have found that no matter what you guess on wood purchases, sometimes you will have to change capacitors, pickups or even string gauges in order to get the best out of the wood you end up with.

 

[Cagey]

You have to take what Mr. DeTemple's marketing weenies say with a block of salt. They're from the audiophile school of thought that says "The customer's always profoundly retarded".

 

[NovasScootYa]

I don't think you guys know what you're talking about. They are cut differently and that makes a big difference. If you take a very think piece of wood (plank) and try to bend it from the flat sawn side it will bend easily. If you turn it around and try to bend it from the quarter sawn side it won't move. Thus, the more stability from quarter sawn. Warmoth didnt say anything about quarter sawn to me. They just told me that birds eye maple is brighter than regular hard maple because it's more dense

IMO, If you use a standard thin profile you'll need quarterswan maple for long term stability. If you use the thicker neck profiles you do not need quarterswan but it doesn't hurt to have it. Besides strings, etc. some of the tone is dependant on the fret material and the wood used for the fretboard and neck. If you use stainless frets you may need a rosewood fretboard, etc. If you use regular fretwire (not recommended unless you like dimples) you can use harder woods for a fretboard. If you use a softer tone-o-meter wood for the neck you can use ebony, etc. for the fretboard and stainless frets.  Also, ebony, etc. seems to grip the frets better and stiffens the neck. In the end, there's no telling what wood will do you just give it your all and hope for the best.
My budget suggestions would be to order a CBS Pro-Construction Birdseye Maple Fatback or Boatneck profile with an Indian Rosewood board, 1 11/16" nut width and 6105 SS fretwire or click on: http://www.warmoth.com/Showcase/ShowcaseNeck.aspx?Body=1&Shape=3&Type=1&Path=Neck,CBS%20Strat,Warmoth%20Pro&i=SN8108
Positively no conventional fret leveling is required but the fret ends will need to be dressed by someone who knows what they are doing...a rare commodity.

BTW, I built Violins in the 80s and respect Detemple's laborious efforts, it seperates the men from the boys.

 

[tfarny]

Nova, we would LOVE to hear the factual / experiential basis for these recommendations. Have you owned a bunch of standard thins for decades and they all warped? Even with the double truss rod? Cmon now this board has higher standards than this kind of stuff. Ebony grips the frets better but you need a rosewood board for SS frets? Sorry but I call BS.

 

[NovasScootYa]

Nova, we would LOVE to hear the factual / experiential basis for these recommendations. Have you owned a bunch of standard thins for decades and they all warped? Even with the double truss rod? Cmon now this board has higher standards than this kind of stuff. Ebony grips the frets better but you need a rosewood board for SS frets? Sorry but I call BS.

I would love to know who mentioned warped? I'm talking about the ability of flat or quarterswan wood to remain stable under long term stress (years).  Stability means not having to adjust a trussrod once a month or re-seat frets, etc. Warping (twisting) is not a common problem unless the humidity is high and the instrument was not tuned flat for storage.
They don't call it standard thin for nothing. If thin maple is used for a neck it's certainly best to use Quarterswan. Perhaps I rained on your flat swan standard thin neck? If so, that's too bad because facts are facts about quarterswan.  And, perhaps a high standard guy like you can pull a fret from an ebony board and pull one from a rosewood board and let me know how your experiment pans out.  And yes, rosewood helps take the bite out of SS frets as does a softer neck wood with ebony, etc. On the other hand, ebony on ebony would make SS frets bite harder. Thanks for your reply.

 

[imminentG]

I usually don't side with cagey, but I agree with his points about that school of thought.

To clarify the whole thing between tfarny and nova, I don't know anything about pulling frets from boards, but I would like to elaborate a little on stainless steel frets and the difference in tone they make.
It is a common back and forth discussion among guitarists wether or not ss fretwire is worth what it potentially does to tone. Some people hear it, some people don't.
I know from first hand experience that it does indeed make a hearable difference- only catch IS, you are not likely to hear it as much on a guitar. My experience has only been on two instruments, one a guitar and the other a bass. I can tell you that it did not strike me as having as much of an impact on what are obviously smaller frets. But on huge bass frets it just murders tone, and I don't think I'd ever be comfortable with anything other than nickel in that particular case of BASS.
The ss frets on the guitar created a negligible enough difference to have fun with how much smoother they felt, but I also wouldn't wanna have to be the guy to work on those things.
Novas opinions are not quite as farfetched as you might first believe. I am not saying I own a bunch of warmoths or flatsawn maple necks, I'm not saying every guitar I've played has ss frets, I'm not saying I've owned guitars for longer than I've been alive that've warped after 20 years. You know what I'm saying.

And now that you mention it, as far as I know warmoth pro necks weren't available "decades" ago, as it was mildy implied.

 

[Paul-less]

.... Ask a question, then tell everybody they don't know what they're talking about?


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EDIT:

Well, nevermind, filter just denied me...

 

[Cagey]

If this site's filter wrecks the URL you're trying to pass, you can always ping the site to get the actual address (such as 173.8.68.166), then pass that instead. Filter will leave it alone.

 

[NovasScootYa]

I usually don't side with cagey, but I agree with his points about that school of thought.

To clarify the whole thing between tfarny and nova, I don't know anything about pulling frets from boards, but I would like to elaborate a little on stainless steel frets and the difference in tone they make.
It is a common back and forth discussion among guitarists wether or not ss fretwire is worth what it potentially does to tone. Some people hear it, some people don't.
I know from first hand experience that it does indeed make a hearable difference- only catch IS, you are not likely to hear it as much on a guitar. My experience has only been on two instruments, one a guitar and the other a bass. I can tell you that it did not strike me as having as much of an impact on what are obviously smaller frets. But on huge bass frets it just murders tone, and I don't think I'd ever be comfortable with anything other than nickel in that particular case of BASS.
The ss frets on the guitar created a negligible enough difference to have fun with how much smoother they felt, but I also wouldn't wanna have to be the guy to work on those things.
Novas opinions are not quite as farfetched as you might first believe. I am not saying I own a bunch of warmoths or flatsawn maple necks, I'm not saying every guitar I've played has ss frets, I'm not saying I've owned guitars for longer than I've been alive that've warped after 20 years. You know what I'm saying.

And now that you mention it, as far as I know warmoth pro necks weren't available "decades" ago, as it was mildy implied.

The last batch of standard frets (6105 & 6150) I used from Warmoth was back when they introduced SS as an option. Prior to SS I experienced cowboy chord dimples within a month. I've owned guitars from A-Z and never experienced this type of accelerated wear. It may have been a bad batch of wire at the time or they may use the same wire supplier wire today I don't know but I'm very happy with SS and use nothing else from Warmoth. The only drawback is SS is a little rough on Nickel D strings. I've used SS wire to refret necks and it's not difficult to level, crown, etc. It is harder to bend.
From time to time I deal with purists whose motto is, "If it's not Fender it's not for me."  Apparently their ears are so sensitive to all aspects of a guitar they must be able to hear a pin drop from a mile away. However, if I let a purist play one of my guitars they never mention fret material but they do ask if it's for sale.
Note: As far as I know the Warmoth Pro Construction neck has been around for awhile. The double rod design was also used by Rickenbacker. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Superlizard]

If you use stainless frets you may need a rosewood fretboard, etc.

Makes perfect sense - SS frets are known to be brighter-toned vs. "nickel-silver" std frets... throw in a treble-dampening
fingerboard slab of rosewood and it balances the brightness out.

That said, I have zero interest in using SS frets.

 

[Cagey]

Makes perfect sense - SS frets are known to be brighter-toned vs. "nickel-silver" std frets... throw in a treble-dampening
fingerboard slab of rosewood and it balances the brightness out.

That said, I have zero interest in using SS frets.

SS frets are not "known" to be brighter-toned. It's just that there are an unenlightened few out there who believe that to be true, and keep spreading the myth. The reality, which anyone who's actually used stainless steel frets instead of just pissing and moaning about them can tell you, is that they don't change the tone at all. They just feel better to play on and wear substantially longer. Assuming they don't use cheap tools, OEMs would use them if they didn't cost $1.50 more per instrument for the raw material. Even Warmoth says there's no difference, and they clearly know more about guitar necks than most neck builders do. Most importantly, I have a couple instruments with them on there, as do others I know, and none of us can discern any difference in tone. Playability is certainly improved, though.

 

[Superlizard]

SS frets are not "known" to be brighter-toned. It's just that there are an unenlightened few out there who believe that to be true, and keep spreading the myth. The reality, which anyone who's actually used stainless steel frets instead of just pissing and moaning about them can tell you, is that they don't change the tone at all. They just feel better to play on and wear substantially longer. Assuming they don't use cheap tools, OEMs would use them if they didn't cost $1.50 more per instrument for the raw material. Even Warmoth says there's no difference, and they clearly know more about guitar necks than most neck builders do. Most importantly, I have a couple instruments with them on there, as do others I know, and none of us can discern any difference in tone. Playability is certainly improved, though.

I think this is right along the lines of the bigger truss rod (say double-expanding) vs. vintage style truss argument - some can hear the brightness difference, others can't.

As a counter-argument example to your Warmoth statement, I can quote USACG (former Warmoth employees):

A note from Tommy about stainless steel frets (in case you were wondering)...

http://www.usacustomguitars.com/neckoptions.html

"Quite honestly they look great and they wear great, but I am a little old fashioned and think they will affect the overall tone of the instrument in a bright way - kind of like a big truss rod. Some things are just magical and shouldn't be messed with. We really feel they would change the tone of the parts we so carefully make for you - we have formulas that we know work well for parts. Sometimes it's scary to mess with a good formula."

So, here we have 2 guitar companies stating 2 different things (or in Warmoth's case, saying nothing negative about SS frets - don't remember exactly).

Which is correct?

Or perhaps it's more like, "who can hear the difference and who cannot?".

 

[Cagey]

So it would seem, unless you actually read what Tommy says, which is "I think they will affect the overall tone of the instrument". Not that they do, or that he's heard it. He thinks they will. He doesn't know, and hasn't heard it yet himself. So, here we have another one spreading a myth with not only no factual base, but with no experience in the matter.

I'm not saying the guy's opinion isn't valid. Everybody's is. But, here he's clearly just pulling it out of his ass.

There are a lot of people who somehow feel there's some kind of harm or shame visited upon them if they admit they don't know something. Not sure why that is, but I believe it usually has to do with a basic insecurity about the veracity of one's knowledge in general. Silly. If someone doesn't know something, they should just say so and if it bothers them, they should see what they can do about being educated. It's not hard. Many people are happy to share what they know.

 

[bob7point7]

As far as a flatsawn standard thin Warmoth Pro construction neck is concerned, I would have to respectfully disagree that there is a stability problem. First off, the standard thin contour is more standard than thin. Second, the double action truss rod seems to add a great deal of stability. My wifes guitar has this exact construction. I haven't touched the truss rod since the initial setup which was done years ago. I just went and picked it up (it's been hanging on the wall for months), and not only was the neck relief still spot on, it was barely even out of tune! It doesn't seem to be any less stable than my '59 roundback exotic necks.

As for stainless frets, I've never had the opportunity to A-B them with nickel on the same guitar, but I ordered stainless frets for my latest project (32" J bass) due to fret wear concerns, and I have nothing but good things to say about them. Is the tone different? I can't say for sure, but I would venture to guess that making the neck from a different tree (of the same type) would make more difference in the tone than switching fretwire. The USACG argument seems like a copout to me. Most likely they don't want to deal with stainless since it would mean stocking a half dozen more types of fretwire and since stainless is harder to work with/harder on tools. If their formula for building guitars that are 'magical' is that specific, where does the 'Custom' part come in?