please help me troubleshoot my build

[adrianb]

Hi, something has been bugging me about the sound of my Warmoth partscaster. I would really appreciate hearing the forum's take on this.

Here is a sound clip:

http://sndup.net/tf48/

I am playing long notes on the 3rd and 2nd strings, starting on the 12th fret and upwards. Only on the bridge pickup. Using high gain channel on the amp, but i can hear the beating on any gain level. No overdrive, distortion, or compression in front of the amp. No effects either. Guitar is tuned to standard, strings are 9-42 gauge. HSH configuration (the middle S is a dimarzio chopper). I varied all pickup heights from flush with pickguard to about 2-3mm away from strings, so it's definitely not stratitis. Guitar is a hardtail, so we can rule out spring vibrations. The clip was recorded with a dimarzio evolution bridge and i've since swapped out all pickups with new ones, but the beating is still there.

I would respectfully invite everybody to hear the clip and then try to reproduce the beating on their own guitars first before responding. You don't have to post a clip of yours; just let me know if you can also hear the beating sound when following my procedure above, and how similar/dissimilar it is to mine. I would love to hear from @aarontunes as you're a gain player like myself.

 

[stratamania]

The sound clip says it was uploaded 3 months ago. But in any case, why would anyone need or want to replicate this?

Does the amp you are using do this with other guitars?

Is it a tube/valve amp?

If so, it might be the amp, not the guitar.

 

[adrianb]

The sound clip says it was uploaded 3 months ago. But in any case, why would anyone need or want to replicate this?

Does the amp you are using do this with other guitars?

Is it a tube/valve amp?

If so, it might be the amp, not the guitar.

I meant to make a post about it 3 months ago but i thought i'd try changing pickups first.

By asking others to try and see if they could replicate it, i could get an idea of how common this issue is and if others have it, too. I mean, i can't be the only one.

My Squier Stratocaster and Ibanez RG don't exhibit this beating.

The amp is a digital Roland Cube.

May i ask if you tried it on your guitars?

 

[stratamania]

No, I didn't try it, but I know that I have no guitars that exhibit this behaviour in several decades. I did wonder if it might be something caused by a rogue tube, but that obviously cannot be the case with a Roland Cube.

Does it do this on other strings at the same pitch, or just the 2nd and 3rd?

I am wondering if it might be due to sympathetic vibration on the guitar. Perhaps check that there are no loose washers or the like if you have not checked already. I did notice something not quite the same but similar on a bass once caused by such a thing. It took a while to find it, but that was what it was.

 

[adrianb]

Does it do this on other strings at the same pitch, or just the 2nd and 3rd?

I am wondering if it might be due to sympathetic vibration on the guitar. Perhaps check that there are no loose washers or the like if you have not checked already. I did notice something not quite the same but similar on a bass once caused by such a thing. It took a while to find it, but that was what it was.

No, only on the 2nd and 3rd strings and only in the range i mentioned (high G to C# on the 3rd, high B to E on the 2nd). And it's apparent only when playing with distortion and only on the bridge pickup. I have a coil split on the bridge pickup, and the beating occurs in both series and split.

Everything's locked down pretty tight. The bridge is a Fender American standard hardtail.

 

[Waraxe]

Check the intonation with a good tuner first.

Mute all the other strings while playing the b and g strings individually. Does the beating still occur? If it disappears under these conditions, its intonation.

Other potential causes:

Action too low? The strings vibrate in a figure 8 pattern, sorta. If action is too low, the strings vibration pattern will vibrate right into the next fret. A single high fret can cause this at one note. All notes from 12 up says low action.

You may need to adjust those two string saddles higher.
Crank them up about a half turn each at the saddle (so you can go back to the original spot easily). Does it still beat?
If not, problem solved! Adjust them both until they are as low as they can get without beating.

Reintonate and enjoy.


I'd be surprised if it's neither of these things.

 

[TBurst Std]

Just listened. Follow Waraxe post. It certainly sounds like the string is being impeded. Most likely a fret.

 

[adrianb]

All my setups are on the high side as far as action is concerned, around 1.6mm+ measured on the 17th fret. My intonation is spot-on. I use only strobe tuners.

I raised the action further on the 2nd and 3rd strings per the suggestion. Did not help, beating is still there.

 

[aarontunes]

If the problem is only two strings in a certain part of the fretboard, that probably rules out electronics issues or amp stuff. To my ears that definitely sounds like a physical issue. The first things I would look at are the frets. High fret? Truss rod adjust correctly? Hump or bow in the neck? Proper neck angle?

Another thing you could look at is the Fender American saddles. I have had issues with those before. First, make sure both the grub screws on each saddle are in solid contact with the bridge plate. Sometimes one of them will be dangling in mid-air or only lightly touching the plate, and will sympathetically vibrate. You can also try swapping the saddles on the offending strings with other saddles and see if the problem persists. I've seen a few instances where the actual saddle point where the string touches is not smoothed very well, causing weird overtones or constant string breakage.

It's tough to diagnose without the guitar in hand, but I would recommend continuing your basic problem solving strategies of eliminating variables, isolating , and testing. Once you figure it out be sure to post, so we can add it to our collective knowledge base.

 

[Rick]

Yep ... start with the bridge

 

[Logrinn]

When I’ve experienced these issues I have found that it has always been a problem with the string(s).
Case in point:
I put on a set of Ernie Balls on one of my guitars and the low E-string sounded very bad. Extreme beating, pulsating that wasn’t there on the other strings. Changed to a new string and problem was solved.

I’m at the moment looking into what negative effect the magnets have on strings. I’ve found that when changing strings and having the guitar lying flat on it’s back, it’s very easy for the loose strings to rest on the magnetic polepieces. Those strings seem to exhibit more of these beating sounds. Could it be that the get slightly magnetized when touching the pickups? That would then explain why they sound like that.
When I make sure that my strings never rest and/or touch the polepieces when restringing, this doesn’t seem to happen.

So my advice:
Change these strings to new ones. And make sure they don’t touch the pickups when you put them on.

 

[adrianb]

If the problem is only two strings in a certain part of the fretboard, that probably rules out electronics issues or amp stuff. To my ears that definitely sounds like a physical issue. The first things I would look at are the frets. High fret? Truss rod adjust correctly? Hump or bow in the neck? Proper neck angle?

Another thing you could look at is the Fender American saddles. I have had issues with those before. First, make sure both the grub screws on each saddle are in solid contact with the bridge plate. Sometimes one of them will be dangling in mid-air or only lightly touching the plate, and will sympathetically vibrate. You can also try swapping the saddles on the offending strings with other saddles and see if the problem persists. I've seen a few instances where the actual saddle point where the string touches is not smoothed very well, causing weird overtones or constant string breakage.

It's tough to diagnose without the guitar in hand, but I would recommend continuing your basic problem solving strategies of eliminating variables, isolating , and testing. Once you figure it out be sure to post, so we can add it to our collective knowledge base.

My own assessment of the neck is that it's fine, no hump or bow. I have some relief dialed in, it's not completely straight.

I checked the bridge and saddles. All the saddle screws appear to be in good contact with the bridge plate. With the strings on and tuned to pitch, i gave a slight turn on each of the saddle screws. I thought it could be side-to-side vibration causing saddles to rub against each other ever so slightly, so i inserted sheets of paper in between the saddles where there are slight gaps. This didn't help.

What issues did you have with these saddles? These are the American standard solid block ones with the offset screws.

I made a recording of the guitar unplugged, capo on the 13th fret, and me picking a high G# on the 3rd string and then muting it immediately. What do you make of this sound:

SndUp | Post info

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sndup.net

When I’ve experienced these issues I have found that it has always been a problem with the string(s).
Case in point:
I put on a set of Ernie Balls on one of my guitars and the low E-string sounded very bad. Extreme beating, pulsating that wasn’t there on the other strings. Changed to a new string and problem was solved.

I’m at the moment looking into what negative effect the magnets have on strings. I’ve found that when changing strings and having the guitar lying flat on it’s back, it’s very easy for the loose strings to rest on the magnetic polepieces. Those strings seem to exhibit more of these beating sounds. Could it be that the get slightly magnetized when touching the pickups? That would then explain why they sound like that.
When I make sure that my strings never rest and/or touch the polepieces when restringing, this doesn’t seem to happen.

So my advice:
Change these strings to new ones. And make sure they don’t touch the pickups when you put them on.

I've gotten a few suggestions that the strings are to blame. The set that is now on my guitar are from a 10-pack of D'addario XL120 that i got a long time ago so it could well be a bad batch. When it's time to restring i'll buy a new pack from the store.

When i restring, my technique is such that one hand pulls and keeps the string taut while the other threads it through the tuner hole so the string never rests on the pickups, but i'll keep this tip in mind. Man, if only this was as easy to solve as stratitis.

Right now i'm considering the electronics, too. Maybe i cut my bridge pickup wires too short, or the lengths of the hot and ground wires are unequal (still doing the research to see if this actually matters). I'm even wondering if, since i don't have any tone controls, i shouldn't jumper the common lugs on the 5-way switch.

 

[stratamania]

@Logrinn 's suggestion is a good one. It is definitely worth changing the strings before anything else, especially if they are old strings. The other things you mention regarding wiring is not going to cause this.

 

[Wolfie351]

My guess would be a nut issue or string angle behind the nut. Are you using string trees?

 

[triple jim]

Wire length is not relevant. Try a different amp to see if the problem still exists.

 

[adrianb]

My guess would be a nut issue or string angle behind the nut. Are you using string trees?

No string trees as this guitar has a tiltback headstock. As for nut issues, only fretted notes are affected.

 

[adrianb]

@Logrinn 's suggestion is a good one. It is definitely worth changing the strings before anything else, especially if they are old strings. The other things you mention regarding wiring is not going to cause this.

I want to get some more use out of this set of strings as they're not that old. I'll make sure to buy a new pack from a store rather than use my stock.

I've been playing around with the pickup heights again. Even with all pickups close to flush with the pickguard, the beating can still be heard. But i noticed that the height of the middle Dimarzio Chopper seems to affect the beating more; past a certain height, even by a slight turn of the height screws, the beating seems to get worse, so i have it set lower than i would like (it doesn't match the neck and bridge in loudness). At this point it could be psychological and i'm just grasping at straws.

Could old pickup height springs somehow cause sympathetic vibrations that find their way to the strings? When i made the second clip, the "echo" seemed to come from under the pickguard. This Dimarzio Chopper i have is 27 years old by now and its springs are the original ones. Is there anything i could check under the pickguard?

 

[stratamania]

Try removing the Chopper temporarily to see if the problem goes away, then go from there if you suspect another problem. Or put some tape on the springs to see if it changes it.

Generally, with all things troubleshooting related, you check and change one thing at a time to establish if it is the cause or eliminate it.

Anything that can vibrate can do so sympathetically. Tubing rather than springs is preferred by many.

 

[adrianb]

Wire length is not relevant. Try a different amp to see if the problem still exists.

I don't have any other physical amp to try, but i do have plugins. Through plugins the beating is considerably reduced, but it also depends on the kind of amp model; some models seem to emphasize it, such as Mesa Boogie models. Overall the beating is somewhat less than on my Roland Cube.

 

[adrianb]

Try removing the Chopper temporarily to see if the problem goes away, then go from there if you suspect another problem. Or put some tape on the springs to see if it changes it.

Generally, with all things troubleshooting related, you check and change one thing at a time to establish if it is the cause or eliminate it.

Anything that can vibrate can do so sympathetically. Tubing rather than springs is preferred by many.

You mean physically removing the Chopper? I'll try that when i change the strings.

I was thinking about rubber tubing. I know those things gum up and harden but i suppose they're worth a try. I'll go buy some.