P/J Bass for Recording

[kishibashi]

Hi Gang,

Basically looking to build a P/J Bass build and need help!
I'm going to preface this by saying I am a classically trained violinist but have become a recording / mixing engineer. I've been recording everything from classical to rock, raggae, metal for the last 7 years.
I got spoiled over the last couple of years working in a studio that had a 65' JBass and a 73' PBass. I loved the tone of the J for rock music and the thump from the P for raggae. Please keep in mind I don't play guitar or bass. My experiences are completely based off of how it sounds to my ears. I now work with bands on my own and my number one complaint is mediocre sounding basses. I find JBasses more versatile for the majority of the recordings I do, but would really love more of that deep subby bass sound as well. I want to build a versatile bass for recording purposes.
What I have come to so far is I want an alder body (being that the basses I've like so far are so) with a rosewood fingerboard. I also like the original pickups in the JBass, but really love Lollars in most any guitars I've heard. The hardware doesn't need to be fancy, but want the best sound possible (within reason  :laughing7.
The only other part I am certain (read: going to experiment with) is taking this to my violin luthier and having him try a particular blend of alcohol based varnish that I particularly like. I can get into why if anyone cares.

Now having presented this... what are you opinions on the P/J combo, how to get the best of the J world with a little of the P world? Also comments as to pickups, etc? Neck wood? I already know what I like on the amp/recording chain of things.
I am good with a soldering iron to build/maintenance studio gear so thats not a worry for me as well. Could use everyones expertise here.

 

[kishibashi]

I should add sorry for this random thread. To clarify I want to get as close as I can to the 65' Jazz Bass Sound, but would like some ideas for a more "subby" sound as well.

 

[line6man]

Keep in mind that with a PJ setup, there are compromises inherent to the mixing of pickups with dissimilar output impedances, and/or output levels. Some people like the tone of a standard P and a J pickup in parallel, with the outputs and impedances doing their thing, while others find it much more preferable to pair the P pickup with a humcancelling J pickup with an output impedance more similar to the P, and an output that's also comparable, such to allow a greater range of pickup blending options. It's quite a subjective topic, but many people seem to feel that humcancelling J pickups of various configurations can come quite close to a true single coil vibe, but with the benefit of humcancellation. While overwound pickups generally have a lower resonant peak and arguably "notchy" sound in comparison with more full range pickups, an overwound pickup, or one with an otherwise hotter output can be quite preferable against a P pickup, given that P pickups tend to have a hotter output than Js, and pickups closer to the neck are generally louder to begin with, since they transduce the string movement further away from the end point at the saddles where the strings do not vibrate as freely.  Long story short, depending on what you're looking for, I would be inclined to avoid traditional single coil J pickups, if I were looking for versatility.

As far as neck woods, everything is great except for the ones that need a finish. Raw wood is your friend, and there is no going back.

 

[line6man]

Also, I really don't think most people would regard Ps or Js as the first choice for "deep subby bass sounds." Maybe a P with flats and mutes, or something, but this is probably not the best means to go about. At least in my opinion.

 

[kishibashi]

Thats exactly what I was doing on a PBass, flats and mutes... maybe best to stick to one thing at a time. Will give me an excuse to build more!  :hello2:
So maybe this takes me to what I need to watch out for in order to build something quite close to a 65' JBass? Part I'm especially unsure about is the bridge? Are there modern equivalents that do a better job? If not which one?
So far body, neck I have figured out. Not quite sure about bridge and pickups.
Once again sorry about the probably stupid questions. Trying to use the search menu as much as possible too and won't be offended if linked to another thread to read. Thanks!

 

[greywolf]

my 2 cents ,  I've been happy with Bartolini's  especially with thier 3 band preamp in the 18v configuration .  Plenty of headroomfor recording,  and a very wide tonal range.

 

[Corey P.]

In terms of bridges, I've used a Leo Quan BadAss II and a Hipshot A-Style, and both are great in terms of sustain/clarity - the main thing they share is that they're brass, which is the main qualification I'd put forward for a bridge.  Obviously if you're going to use mutes sustain isn't necessary desirable, but since you've got the option of removing the covers for different sounds I'd start with the purest tone and give yourself some flexibility.

 

[line6man]

Thats exactly what I was doing on a PBass, flats and mutes... maybe best to stick to one thing at a time. Will give me an excuse to build more!  :hello2:
So maybe this takes me to what I need to watch out for in order to build something quite close to a 65' JBass? Part I'm especially unsure about is the bridge? Are there modern equivalents that do a better job? If not which one?
So far body, neck I have figured out. Not quite sure about bridge and pickups.
Once again sorry about the probably stupid questions. Trying to use the search menu as much as possible too and won't be offended if linked to another thread to read. Thanks!

There is considerable debate over high versus low-mass bridges. Both have their fans.
If you want a low-mass bridge, however, stay away from crappy Fender bridges; the saddles shift all over the damn place because they are only held in position along the X axis by string tension. Grab any Fender bass and give the E or G string a good thump by the bridge, and you've thrown the string spacing. Hipshot makes a vintage style low-mass bridge with a groove under the intonation screws to secure the saddle in place so you won't have this issue. Almost all modern, high-mass bridges won't have the issue, either.

Personally, I'd want a Hipshot A bridge. I can never get past the look of the BadAss II. If you're looking for a higher mass bridge on the cheap, Gotoh makes an excellent bridge comparable to a vintage Fender in terms of aesthetic and adjustability. I have had a Gotoh 201 on my Warmoth PJ forever.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

You are looking for a vintage sounding pickup, but with the improvements that modern designs impart.  As has been mentioned, and active set up will increase the versatility of the bass beyond the vintage sound, and can be bypassed if the pure pickup is desired.  It gives you options.  Make sure the body has a battery box route if you go this way, it just makes things easier to do it now rather than later.  As far as pickups are concerned, there are a lot of nice designers.  I would read through Best Bass Gears pages and see what catches your eyes.  Also I would not hesitate to email/call them.  They are very nice and quite interested in you getting the part that makes the sound you want.  Very nice folks.  I also agree on the raw necks, they are just wicked fun.  Hope that gives you some ideas/avenues to look at.
Patrick

 

[line6man]

It's a bit pointless to want a preamp on a recording bass. Chaining gain stages only increases the noisefloor and decreases headroom. The advantage of equalization or fixed voicing is not great, either, considering that much flexibility will be afforded by other gear in the studio. Any sort of adjustable gain boost also would not matter too much. That being said, however, simple buffers are always great, if you don't have headroom/noisefloor issues. The main advantages of an active system, aside from the usual EQ and filtering, would be the low output impedance and constant input impedance. You won't lose as much treble to the parasitic capacitance of your instrument cable, with a low impedance signal, since the cutoff frequency goes up as the impedance goes down. In the studio, cable runs tend to stay short, however, so this is a questionable advantage. As far as the constant input impedance, that is always a good thing to allow the resonant circuit between the pickups and what they feed into to remain the same, regardless of what the bass is plugged into.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

You points are valid, but it also depends on the nature of the studio.  A home studio with limited equipment would make the active setup functionally more helpful for the price.  Also, you can always bypass it as mentioned if it is a problem.  I would have a hard time saying what would be more suitable with out knowing more, or simply trying it out.  However, the option being available is not much of a price increase on the bass.  A battery box route.  A pre can be bought and sold, but routing for the box is a pain after the fact.
Patrick

 

[line6man]

You points are valid, but it also depends on the nature of the studio.  A home studio with limited equipment would make the active setup functionally more helpful for the price.  Also, you can always bypass it as mentioned if it is a problem.  I would have a hard time saying what would be more suitable with out knowing more, or simply trying it out.  However, the option being available is not much of a price increase on the bass.  A battery box route.  A pre can be bought and sold, but routing for the box is a pain after the fact.
Patrick

I'm not a big fan of battery boxes. Get a rear route, and there will be room for two batteries inside the control cavity. That gives you the flexibility to be active or passive and swap things around to your heart's content later down the road.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I like that option as well.  Perhaps Warmoth should make the cavity cover with the box route in it so you could add it that way.  Would be a simple fix.
Patrick

 

[SkuttleFunk]

here's my personal thoughts combined with a significant dose of my professional clients' perspectives:

- recording = passive. sure, there are exceptions to every rule. but 99% of my professional clients use a passive set-up almost 100% of the time

- a P is a P is a P. I believe there is a commandment somewhere prohibiting the cross polinization of a neck position with a single-coil J in the bridge.

- a J is a J is a J. see note about cross polinization above

- most pro players with a higher degree in music have spent enough time with a P and a J that they think completely different with each configuration. it really messes with their hearing to install a J neck on a P body with P pickup ... and it's a very humorous thing to watch them testing a bass configured like this

- for a P or J styled bass, a Hipshot vintage bent plate bridge or a LeoQuan BadAss bridge are your two schools of thought. I would say it's 50/50 as to which is best on a J. I don't like the BA bridge on a P


all the best,

R

 

[line6man]

I believe there is a commandment somewhere prohibiting the cross polinization of a neck position with a single-coil J in the bridge.

There are two basic schools of thought on the PJ configuration in general.

1. It is the very best thing since sliced bread! A perfect configuration that gives the best of both worlds, and other things you could never dream of with a P or J alone.

2. It is the very worst thing ever! A configuration that tries to do many things well but does all things poorly. It cannot ever replicate the true tone of a P bass, and only offers the worst of a J bass.

Depends what you want, I suppose. Personally, I like it, because I mainly solo bridge J pickups, and prefer Ps to J necks. I've never cared for the tone of any two pickups played together, however, PJ or otherwise.

 

[swarfrat]

Whats so weird about J wood and P electrics?  I've considered this for myself. P neck, J body with a single P pickup. Offset body, wide neck, rock n roll thud.

But honestly if this for other random people you don't even know, I'd prolly get a MIM P and a MIM J ( in different colors so you can call em 'the black bass' and 'the red bass') and rest easy in the knowledge that anyone who snubs their nose at em is likely to be bringing their own anyway.

 

[Kostas]

I have a Jazz and a P style. Although I have my preference they are both useful instruments and provide the classic sounds. If bass will a part of your future life consider making one now and make/buy the other in the future. It would be useful if one is fretless, add the different type of strings you can change in both basses and you will cover lots of sounds. Don't forget the used market. I wanted to make a Warmoth but in the end I bought both basses used for the price of a Warmoth.

On the other hand, I have heard amazing sounds from P/J basses. If the player knows what he's doing he will sound great no matter the instrument. Check an amazing well known P/J player who I love his sound http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxZukx-Drw0&feature=share&list=PLC0EE5D0E46F713E8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVLOJDX-fM&feature=share&list=PLC0EE5D0E46F713E8

Lollar was (I hope he still is) versatile with his pickups. If you ask for a balanced, hum cancelling in the middle position, P/J set he will do it. He can match the output so no pickup is more powerful than the other.

My preference for neck wood would be maple because I like Warmoths satin finish, even more than a raw wood. It's also the wood used in both Fender basses. I would go for graphite truss rods to keep the weight down.

There are many bridges to choose, the classic bridge on my Jazz bass works good and I wouldn't change it. I would actually prefer a vintage style bridge since you want to get close to a '65 Jazz.

I can't state enough how important is a good amp. Before I got my amp I was playing through my guitar setup ('73 Fender Bassman + Orange 4x12 cab) and I didn't like it. A proper bass amp really made justice to both basses and showed their different character.

 

[kishibashi]

Wow, this is a very active forum with extremely helpful members. Thanks for all the input. I'm made up on a J that has the sound I like instead of making a P/J. Will be creating something close to that 65' Jazz Bass sound I love. I've never liked active basses when it comes to recording, as I have high end gear that does the job better. It's going into Neve/API and the like.
The bridges are in the price range I might try the Badass and the Hipshot. Anyone have a link to anyone who has comparison sound clips? Really don't care how it looks.
Are there any other things I am forgetting about that really effects the sound on these? How about the material that makes the end of the neck stock where the strings cross over onto the pegs? Does that material makes a difference to sound? Sound Clips? Links?
I can do all the reading I want but would love to hear sound clips, since at the end of the day the sound is all that matters.

Thanks ya'll.  arty07:

 

[line6man]

Wow, this is a very active forum with extremely helpful members. Thanks for all the input. I'm made up on a J that has the sound I like instead of making a P/J. Will be creating something close to that 65' Jazz Bass sound I love. I've never liked active basses when it comes to recording, as I have high end gear that does the job better. It's going into Neve/API and the like.
The bridges are in the price range I might try the Badass and the Hipshot. Anyone have a link to anyone who has comparison sound clips? Really don't care how it looks.
Are there any other things I am forgetting about that really effects the sound on these? How about the material that makes the end of the neck stock where the strings cross over onto the pegs? Does that material makes a difference to sound? Sound Clips? Links?
I can do all the reading I want but would love to hear sound clips, since at the end of the day the sound is all that matters.

Thanks ya'll.  arty07:

Hearing soundclips will not do you much good unless you intend to replicate many variables exactly. Give two players the same bass with the same rig, and even that will sound different.

If you want a '60s Fender vibe, get a white corian nut from Warmoth, or cut your own from bone. There are a LOT of choices for guitar nuts, but not so many for bass. At least with what Warmoth offers.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

If this is strictly a studio bass, have both pickups with their own isolated controls and separate outputs.  On direct in recording, which is perfectly acceptable on bass, you have infinite tracks.  Record each sound on the same bass during the same track.  Manipulate them later and choose either or both.