Next project, Predator

[Vallhagen]

As i wait for the recently orderred Earlex spraystation http://www.hvlpshop.co.uk/Item/earlex_hv5500 (including 1mm needle), it might be a good thing to startup the work on this guitar project. I got this second-hand Peavey Predator very cheap from "blocket" (a swedish buy-sell-trade-website). That was early this summer.

It is surprisingly (or is it really a surprise? All USA made strat, can't be totally wrong from the start) well-playable as it is. The seller had just recently had a fret-work done.

Some scratches, impact marks and dings for sure. The bridge is "hard-tailed" and the electronics are scratchy too. So i will sand it all down and re-do the finnish, replace the bridge/tremolo with something else (I have a Kahler Fulcrum laying around, might put that one in this guitar) and most likely replace all pickups.

**

And i have questions:
This is actually my first (!) all-maple neck. No rosewood (or similar...ebony...) fingerboard. And it is covered with a very nasty "plastic" lacquer which i want to just sand away. As long as it is the backside of the neck, its a piece of cake (or rather: just a matter of time), but this plastic laquer is also between the frets. Is it realistic/possible to sand it away without lifting off the frets first? Hints appreciated

Also, i am about to take my first steps into the world of mixing laquer and shooting it from this spraystation. I need a starting point about what to order. Is "Mixol Pigments" the best available? Or "Colortone"? Will i do good with just a can of nitro-cellulose clear, and some pigments of my choice, or must i have some "sanding/vinyl sealer" too?

Or... are there serious alternatives to nitro-cellulose? Shall i run another route? Can i have fantastic results with water-based stuff?

...yea i know; i have finnished three guitars with different methods, still basic questions. Though i have read up quite a bit, as well as watching youtube vids, I'mstill left somewhere in the middle of confusion. Maybe i can islolate the question to this very project: I want to shoot this guitar a "candy apple red" finnish. what do i need?

***
hmm, yea: No warmoth content here either. Hope that is ok.

Cheers!

 

[Cagey]

Y'know - over 45 years or so of working with countless guitars I've never owned one with a Maple fretboard for that very reason: I can't stand a finished 'board. I'm like a cat faced with a wet surface - I'll treat it like it's hot or sticky or something and do nearly anything to avoid it. Don't know why. Some people it doesn't bother at all. But, I can understand why you'd want to get rid of it.

Unfortunately, there's no easy way to remove that finish without causing other problems. If you try to sand/grind it off, you'll wreck the frets. Even if you didn't wreck the frets, that would be a lotta work. Chemical stripping isn't an option because you'll invariably get into the sides/rear of the neck where you need it to be finished, and you have the problem of recovering from that.

If it was me, I'd either sell the guitar or get another neck for it. But, I'm a guitar-building fool who's easily amused :icon_biggrin:

If you like the sound/feel/appearance of Maple, roasted Maple necks are available now and are pretty reasonably priced. Canary is another option. Neither of them require finishes, so you get the best feeling neck possible. Plus, you'll get new frets out of the deal while you're at it, and they can be stainless like all frets should be. Oughta be a law, really.

As for finishing, you might want to read through this article a couple/few times. It's one of the best treatments of working with nitrocellulose lacquer and guitars that I've seen. That same site has articles on working with water-based lacquer, french polishing, etc. if you can live with less durable finishes.

I've never done a "candy" finish, but my understanding is you put a tinted finish over a silver base, so you end up with several layers of work before you're done. First there's the sealer, then the grain fill, then the silver, then the tint coat, then the clear coat. You'll notice Warmoth charges more for candy coatings - this is why.

 

[Vallhagen]

...
If you like the sound/feel/appearance of Maple,
...

Not at all really. I'm all rosewood / ebony / similar. Always. AND the feeling of an unfinished neck, yes please. This one i got just crazy cheap (less than half the prize of any standard unfinished body) for being a playable guitar, so i thought "why not". Though i get your points. I'lll consider going for a new neck.

***

Thanx for the link. I'll read through it.

***

I'm too old for not daring asking stupid questions. Here is one: Why do we need a specific "sealer"? Cant we just use a layer of clear to "seal" the wood?

Cheers

 

[Cagey]

I'm too old for not daring asking stupid questions. Here is one: Why do we need a specific "sealer"? Cant we just use a layer of clear to "seal" the wood?

Sure. It's often called a "wash coat", which is simply a somewhat thinner mixture of the cover coats. Basically, all you're trying to do is seal the wood so it doesn't soak up the vehicles of subsequent finishes. For instance, if you apply a grain filler to an unsealed surface, it's liable to shrink into it a bit so you have to go another round with it. Every time you add a coat or a step, you add time and money to the finish, so you try to avoid that if you can. For DIY guys like us, it doesn't matter as much as it does to production shops. Just keep in mind that the quality of the end result is largely dependent on surface prep.

As for a "specific" sealer, there are chemistries out there that are designed to work together to produce a certain result. The Behlen line, for instance, has a reducer/sealer/finish coat affinity that's supposed to keep the finish from checking later on in life. I've used it and it works well, but I haven't had anything I've shot it with be around long enough to say whether it really doesn't check. That generally takes years to happen.

That said, I really haven't had any problem mixing brands. But, it may be that I just don't have a long enough history.

 

[Vallhagen]

Right.

I found "Rothko and Frost" from some goooogling. Hopefully the right place to start. I found good info on that page, cross-reference charts etc. I thought i order the following, all nitro-cellulose:

1 litre clear
0.25 litre sealer
2*0.25 litre tinted (yes, two colors) laquer
1 litre cellulose anti-bloom thinner.

... i have no idea how much wood i can do with how much lacquer via a HVLP spray station. is there an estimation? Say, how many body coats per dl?

Cheers

 

[Cagey]

Being unfamiliar with that product, I don't know that I'd be ordering "anti-bloom" thinner, or that little of it. The thinner will be used for the sealant, color coats and clear coat usually around 1:1, as well as for clean ups so I wouldn't buy less than a gallon of it. And rather than anti-bloom, I'd just get regular acetone and a small can of retarder to mix with that if needed. Retarder is generally used in the ounce per pint range, give or take. It prevents blooming by slowing down the rate the acetone boils off. That means it'll be much easier to get sags and runs if you're not careful, or if the environment doesn't call for slower flash-offs. So, you don't want it mixed in by default, you want to add it as needed, which it often isn't. As long as it isn't terribly hot or humid, retarder can often be disregarded.

As for how much that'll cover? Tough to say. Depends on how many coats you put on and how thick. You have to figure you're going to sand a lot of what you shoot right back off. If it was me, I'd say that's gonna be enough for less than 2 bodies. In other words, don't start a second one without some replenishment.

 

[bagman67]

Looks like you're pretty well covered with Cagey's advice concerning the refinish you're undertaking, but I just want to climb on board and say congrats on one of the great cheapy guitar deals the universe offers.  i have a Peavey Predator that has seen me through rough times and now my son has taken possession.  The neck on it is rock-solid.  It's actually a three-piece neck - the shaft is a glue-up with the seam down the middle, and the fretboard is the third piece.  It. Never.  Moves.  I did rip out the crappy entry-level pickups and installed a Carvin pre-wired pickguard with three of their twin-rail humbuckers, and all is well with the world.


I could probably replace it on Craigslist or eBay for 75 bucks,  not counting the aftermarket pups.



Enjoy.

 

[stratamania]

I think Rothko and Frost, used to have a kit of materials for Candy Apple Red, with a choice of silver or gold for the metallic layer. If it's out of stock there probably is a list of what you'd need to buy separately. I've bought odds and ends from them a few times.

Regarding the neck, one thing you could do is scallop it. It might not be your thing but at least one Swede has done it before.

 

[Vallhagen]

First... the neck:

Notice the 15th fret. Ive been there for about 20 seconds with a hairdryer and a "halfsharp" metal scraping tool. The "plastic lacquer" flies away like flakes. I think i am on track. This can be done with some patience and a sharpie. We'll see.

**

I think Rothko and Frost, used to have a kit of materials for Candy Apple Red, with a choice of silver or gold for the metallic layer. If it's out of stock there probably is a list of what you'd need to buy separately. I've bought odds and ends from them a few times.

Regarding the neck, one thing you could do is scallop it. It might not be your thing but at least one Swede has done it before.

Hehe. Yngwie who?
/Bengt J Vallhagen

... I can't find that Candy apple kit right now on their site. They have other kits though, but they are all rattle cans. Thanx for the hint though, if i dont find a list, ill send them an email and ask what nuances is needed for the metal and red parts of the candy. They shall know. During browsing i found another retailer selling an apple red candy kit (spray cans too), and their info is "silver and transparent red".

Looks like you're pretty well covered with Cagey's advice concerning the refinish you're undertaking, but I just want to climb on board and say congrats on one of the great cheapy guitar deals the universe offers.  i have a Peavey Predator that has seen me through rough times and now my son has taken possession.  The neck on it is rock-solid.  It's actually a three-piece neck - the shaft is a glue-up with the seam down the middle, and the fretboard is the third piece.  It. Never.  Moves.  I did rip out the crappy entry-level pickups and installed a Carvin pre-wired pickguard with three of their twin-rail humbuckers, and all is well with the world.


I could probably replace it on Craigslist or eBay for 75 bucks,  not counting the aftermarket pups.



Enjoy.

Thanx Bagman. Encouraging. And yes, as stated in the first post, this guitar is actually quite nice as it is. And this neck is two-piece; the same way as yours i guess, without the third woodpiece for the fingerboard.

Being unfamiliar with that product, I don't know that I'd be ordering "anti-bloom" thinner, or that little of it. The thinner will be used for the sealant, color coats and clear coat usually around 1:1, as well as for clean ups so I wouldn't buy less than a gallon of it. And rather than anti-bloom, I'd just get regular acetone and a small can of retarder to mix with that if needed. Retarder is generally used in the ounce per pint range, give or take. It prevents blooming by slowing down the rate the acetone boils off. That means it'll be much easier to get sags and runs if you're not careful, or if the environment doesn't call for slower flash-offs. So, you don't want it mixed in by default, you want to add it as needed, which it often isn't. As long as it isn't terribly hot or humid, retarder can often be disregarded.

As for how much that'll cover? Tough to say. Depends on how many coats you put on and how thick. You have to figure you're going to sand a lot of what you shoot right back off. If it was me, I'd say that's gonna be enough for less than 2 bodies. In other words, don't start a second one without some replenishment.

Perfect Cagey, great answer(s). So, more thinner it will be.

The "antibloom" is - simply put - a thinner that can be used for both tinted lacquer and clearcoat laquer. They actually sell it as "Premium (anti-bloom) Thinner". They also have a "standard" thinner, but that will not work with their clearcoat(?). All according to their website. Technically, i guess the "antibloom" thinner is just regular thinner with an amount of retarder in it.

 

[Vallhagen]

A parenthesis... again... :icon_biggrin:

Guys... whats the problem getting into the SI Metric system units!! It is 2015!! I am converting gallons to litres here, and i just found out that its not only "GALLONS"... it is also UK gal... US gal.. and not to mention DRY vs LIQUID gal???

... no, I'm not mad at all. But i find it funny. I think at least the universe finally agreed on only "one kind of inch", that is 1"=2.54cm. Correct me if im wrong.

**

And - on subject: I asked earlier^^ about some roughly estimation about lacquer consumption. There is actually a table included in the lmii link you posted Cagey. I should have seen that before asking i guess

**

I will give this neck a full try today, sand n burnish. Then just rub in some boiled lindseed oil. I scraped off about half of the fingerboard yesterday before bedtime, and it feels promising. Ill be back with pics n stuff.

Cheers

 

[Vallhagen]

My own very rough conversion table. i repeat: very rough (which shall be acceptable in this case, its about magnitudes).

1 gallon = 4 litre
1 quart = 1 litre
1 pint = 0.5 litre

1 fl oz = 30 ml

 

[Cagey]

That's pretty much the conversion table I keep in the back of my head. It's close enough for rock 'n' roll most of the time.

 

[stratamania]

I assume you are using US gallons, quarts and litres there ?

Those conversions seem practical enough for US to metric but wil fall short for Imperial Gallons, quarts and pints.

 

[Vallhagen]

Yea... but if i keep that "imperial are a bit more than US" in my head, the list will work fairly ok. I find the difference between them surprisingly big; Uk volumes is 1.2 times US volumes. Again; my list is "very rough".

 

[Vallhagen]

Fretboard scraped. Turned out good. The only thing concerning me here is if i have caused any unintentional lift of any frets caused by the added heat. But at least to my eye there aint no problem.

Then.... lets s"#¤%&ew those CAD programs and bezier curves for a while and go freehand. The edges of this head is so ugly i intend to "shave 'em off" by routing a slightly different shape. Predator going Postdator. Next post will be success or disaster.

 

[Cagey]

If you want to check for high/low frets, a reliable straightedge and a set of feeler gauges is handy, but bare minimum you need a fret rocker.

If you can wait an extra day or two, I'd recommend getting one from here. They're about 1/3 the price for the same thing. He sells a variety of other tools pretty reasonably, too.

I like what you're doing to that headstock. As it is, it looks too much like a Tele headstock, which on a scale of 1 to 10 is a -6.

 

[Vallhagen]

I like what you're doing to that headstock. As it is, it looks too much like a Tele headstock, which on a scale of 1 to 10 is a -6.

Hehe... I'm all ahead for -9. Wait and see!

I remember a wise man saying "You can do a helluva lotta damage in a hurry with one of those [routing] bitches". Which may be read as: "Dont try to SHORTCUT by doing a halfass template in 3 (2?) mm masonite!!!"

Yep, some damage done. I backed off the router and reshaped the head with a jigsaw (is it called "jigsaw" when it has a motor and is overhand?) and some 50 grit sanding rolls instead.  Should have done it that way from the beginning huh... As i type, some filler at parts of the headstock is curing...

Well, some lessons learned. Again.

And yes. I shall get one of those rockers! I figure, even if i wont do too much fretwork myself (yet), its a good thing to identify the off-frets.

Cheers

 

[Cagey]

Y'know, I've been wanting to be able to reshape Strat headstocks into Warheads rather than pay Warmoth to do it, but haven't tried because a Strat headstock drops down a bit at the nut so a router wouldn't be able to drive around flat. I kept thinking I'd need a CNC or tricky jig or something. But, then it just occurred to me while looking at your efforts there that the thing to do would be to make a template for the rear of the headstock. Nothing to get in the way of the router base that way.

 

[Vallhagen]

.. the rear of the headstock. Nothing to get in the way of the router base that way.

Yep. Correct thinking. As long as the headstock isnt back-tilted that must be the way to do it. So far i made it right. Then - as said - i backed off!

 

[Vallhagen]

I think Rothko and Frost, used to have a kit of materials for Candy Apple Red, ...

You're damm right! I checked their webpage again with opened eyes, and i found it!

***

A few updates, as things moves slowly forward. I have received the Earlex HVLP station from inkluding a 1 mm tip. But I havent orderred any paint or laquer yet... so not much painting so far. I really thought things over one two three times, and i will try my own route and go with waterbased stuff for a start. The main reason for this is; i dont have good ventilation right now. So, if waterbased lacquer gives me a good enough result, i can go on with it, without need to solve the ventilation task. i'll give it a shot. If I fail, i have learned something.

And also, this project is cheap. I can use it as the "trial and error"-project. So why not do the full-body routing a try? I just spent a few hours doing body design and a routing template. There's a guy on interweb doing this, giving a few clever hints. Google "from pdf to mdf" and you will find him. I found two of his (simple yet brilliant) hints very usable: 1) how to print a bigger thing on A4 paper. 2) How to transfer the printout contours to the PDF-board.

The template is pretty much ready to use, it just needs some more sanding. I have to halt now though, weeeeekend duties (as in a friends birthday party) are calling!

Cheers