New Warmoth neck needs serious leveling - remove metal or press in frets?

DaveG_NJ

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Hi there. I'm on my first Partscaster build and have been very lucky so far. I picked up a genuine Fender roasted maple Telecaster neck on Amazon (of all places). Fit was perfect. 12" radius, medium jumbo frets. Frets were perfect out of the box (and I like a low action). A truss rod adjustment was all that was needed. The guitar was on its way to becoming my #1 except the neck was too darn thin. My current #1 is a Richie Kotzen model, so you know I like baseball bat necks.

So I ordered a Fatback roasted maple Warmoth neck out of the showcase. SS6150 frets and a compound 10-16" radius. Came today and I thought I'd roll the dice and strung it up. Feels great and fits in the pocket just fine, but notes between the 15th and 20th frets on the high-e string are fretting out. Not just buzzing, but I can move 3 frets away and the note doesn't change. You can SEE with the naked eye which frets are high - no rocker needed.

OK, I guess that's a potential situation Warmoth warms about (though magically, mass-produced Fender got a neck perfect). So my questions are:

- when leveling a new neck, is removing metal always the solution? Should I try to "press-in" or tap-in a fret that may be high?
- can I use a regular fret file with SS frets?
- does this have anything to do with the compound radius (my first)?

I guess I don't understand how a fretboard could be level but the frets so far off from one another. I would think the thickness doesn't change but a few microns along the wire (that's why I asked about seating the frets instead of shaving them).
 

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As with all other questions like this, I'll recommend calling Warmoth about it if you think the frets aren't seated properly. That's probably something they can take care of.

As far as why the Fender neck you bought didn't have high frets, it's probably because Fender builds guitars, which usually includes at least a modicum of setup. On top of that, some stores do their own additional setups when a guitar comes in, which frequently includes a spot level. Warmoth doesn't do that.

On top of THAT, the last I heard, since frets are generally extruded, there can be up to a 15-20% variance in fret thickness on the reel, which translates to height once the frets are installed.

Having said all that, if the frets aren't fully seated, definitely give Warmoth a call.  :)
 
Thanks. I didn't realize there was such a variance along the fret wire.

As for the Fender neck, I should clarify that it was a "replacement" neck. New - never mated with a guitar. Fender advises, much like Warmoth, that fitting of the pocket may be necessary as may leveling of the frets and almost certainly, cutting the nut. Maybe I was just really lucky with a MIM replacement neck.

The Warmoth neck is well made, smooth with clean fret ends and it fits the pocket well. I don't see any gaps between the bottom of the fret and the fretboard, so maybe it's just due to the variance in the wire. I just never heard 3 or 4 frets ringing the same note because the highest was so tall, but my experience is limited to brand new and used complete guitars.
 
Warmoth makes some very fine necks, but even they'll say right on the sales site that some setup work will be required to make them "just right".

It's difficult in the extreme to predict what somebody's going to want or prefer, particularly when you're talking about something like a neck where very small variations that are often considered normal or even desirable for some may be just the opposite for someone else. String nut slot depth is a prime example. They have to be left with some adjustment room if for no other reason than they don't know what size/gauge set strings a customer is going to use.

As for leveling, removing metal is almost always the only thing you can do. You certainly can't add any, so if you want them all the same height, whaddaya gonna do? And if they're not all equal, you may get "buzzing" issues. It's just a fact of life - all manufacturers have to deal with it one way or another. If one or more frets are dramatically high, that's something else. Fortunately that rarely happens. If the fretboard is milled flat (relatively speaking), the frets should install the same way. But, things happen. Wood is inconsistent, so its crush depth may change from one place to another. Environmental changes will often change dimensions. Glue may misbehave. Fret fabrication may be inconsistent... the list is long.

As for working the frets, usually regular files don't have much problem with SS. Stainless is tough to work, though, so for tool longevity's sake and ease of working, you want diamond abrasives, particularly for string-facing surfaces. Leaves less to clean up later.

Compound radius isn't an issue, other than while leveling you need to be aware of it. You want to follow the string path with your leveling beam, rather than a parallel path from nut to heel. Takes a little forethought, but that's about it. Not something you need a special tool for or anything.

The whole thing is rather tedious and time-consuming, with no guarantee somebody's gonna be happy, so few manufacturers even bother due to the high cost of labor and the amount needed to do it all. Someone like Suhr or PRS will do it, but then they get paid to do it up front. Others, like Gibson, seem to charge for it without providing it. So, you pays yer munny and you makes yer choice.
 
Suhr and Gibson use a PLEK machine.

SO?

A client bought a spanking new LP that was already plek'd..... and had to send it back.

I did a complete fret level, recrown, and polish on a new LP was plek'd by Gibson, and the client paid big bucks to have me do it instead of sending it back.

Just because a machine did it, means NOTHING.
 
pabloman said:
:laughing7:Suhr and Gibson use a PLEK machine.

I didn't know Suhr used one, I did know Gibson did. But, results are more a reflection of how a tool is used by the operator than the tool itself. I understand Gibson uses their Plek machines more as a "triage" or "pre-setup" stage than a final finishing touch. Being a production environment, they need some practical numbers to justify everything they do, and fine setup is simply time-consuming, even with a Plek machine.I watched a video once that showed how Gibson frets necks, and it's remarkably fast. I mean, the operator can literally fret an entire neck in a matter of a couple minutes. (S)he has a continuous-feed pneumatically operated tool that feeds some fretwire, pounds it in, and cuts it off in literally seconds. It's like watching a roofer pound nails into shingles with a nail gun. I was envious :laughing7:

Of course, even they wouldn't ship from that stage. More needs to be done. I'm just saying - time is often of the essence in production, so seconds count. If using a Plek machine to give a guitar a fast/automated lick and a promise to get to "passable" can save a couple hour's fine touch by skilled labor later on, that's worth a lotta money in the grand scheme of things. Plus, now you can say your guitar's been "Plek'd" - a process known to cost some long dollars in most instances. Not so much because it's better, but because the machine itself costs big bucks that need to be amortised to justify its existence. You'll hear in some shops "We have three qualities: fast, good and cheap. Pick two."  :laughing7:

 
Cagey said:
As for leveling, removing metal is almost always the only thing you can do. You certainly can't add any, so if you want them all the same height, whaddaya gonna do? And if they're not all equal, you may get "buzzing" issues. It's just a fact of life - all manufacturers have to deal with it one way or another. If one or more frets are dramatically high, that's something else. Fortunately that rarely happens. If the fretboard is milled flat (relatively speaking), the frets should install the same way. But, things happen. Wood is inconsistent, so its crush depth may change from one place to another. Environmental changes will often change dimensions. Glue may misbehave. Fret fabrication may be inconsistent... the list is long.

As for working the frets, usually regular files don't have much problem with SS. Stainless is tough to work, though, so for tool longevity's sake and ease of working, you want diamond abrasives, particularly for string-facing surfaces. Leaves less to clean up later.

Compound radius isn't an issue, other than while leveling you need to be aware of it. You want to follow the string path with your leveling beam, rather than a parallel path from nut to heel. Takes a little forethought, but that's about it. Not something you need a special tool for or anything.

Thanks Cagey, that's exactly what I needed to know. I can deal with a few high spots. It may be a case where some random variances aligned just right (or wrongly), like a slightly shorter (within spec) fret is behind a slightly taller (within spec). I've never seen a case with a note frets out and rings the wrong note true two frets away (and only on one string). The fact that the adjacent B string is fine made me thing it had something to do with the radius, but at that end, it should be fairly flat (16"). I'll go at it slowly with my files. Thanks for your help!
 
Depending on how the frets have moved/worn or been installed, sometimes it's possible to think you're seeing a high fret when it's actually a low adjacent fret. You have to check a series of frets to decide what you're truly seeing so you don't start chasing your tail.

One way to actually see which frets are up/down is once the fretboard is adjusted level as you can get it, mark all the fret tops with a Sharpie or a Marks-a-Lot, then just ride the leveling beam with some 320 grit down the length of the neck once or twice. The high frets will show a thin line on the crown, the low ones won't get touched. It'll be quite obvious whether you need to go further or not, or which aren't level from side to side.

Any leftover ink or abrasions will be removed during final smoothing/polishing.
 
Are you 100% confident your relief, action, and nut are all dialed? If so, then yes, it's time to take a look at the frets.

Full transparency, I'm a newbie to fret work. However, over the past 2 months I have purchased and prepped 5 Warmoth necks. In my opinion, the raw frets on my necks ranged from OK to very poor, but it's important to understand this isn't a Warmoth issue. Warmoth simply installs the frets, they do ZERO fretwork. Heck, they don't even bother to clean off the overspray from their neck finishing process. Warmoth sells parts, Fender sells finished instruments, so the two really don't compare. 

Regarding the frets, all of mine have been properly seated. Fret leveling is another story. Below are a few posts illustrating the process I went through to finish my frets. Again, I'm a newbie so please don't take my posts as instructional, but you can see all of my necks needed leveling.

Here is my experience:

https://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=31308.msg440257#msg440257

https://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=topics;u=37681

Regarding PLEK. I'm a big fan. I have a nice collection of G&L's and Les Pauls, all of which are factory PLEK'd, and as OCD and anal that I am, I can't find a single issue with any of them. In fact, I'm quite impressed by both the process and results. Honestly, I'll probably have a few of the necks I've done PLEK'd anyways because I know it will produce results 100x better than my sloppy work.
 
Cactus Jack said:
... Heck, they don't even bother to clean off the overspray from their neck finishing process. Warmoth sells parts, Fender sells finished instruments, so the two really don't compare...

I’ve worked 15 years in a music store and seen countless Fender’s with spray left on the frets on their maple necks.
 
Logrinn said:
Cactus Jack said:
... Heck, they don't even bother to clean off the overspray from their neck finishing process. Warmoth sells parts, Fender sells finished instruments, so the two really don't compare...

I’ve worked 15 years in a music store and seen countless Fender’s with spray left on the frets on their maple necks.

Fender put out guitars that looked like below? If so it must have been decades ago as I haven’t seen anything like this over the last 30 years.

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Yes, it's been many years since I worked in a music store, but I'll keep my eyes open for this the next time I visit a store. If I see one I'll be sure to take some pictures.
My personal experience with Fender's guitars is that they have such extreme differences between good and bad quality. And it seems it doesn't always have to do with cost. I've seen cheap Squier's that were great and expensive high-end Fender's that were really bad.
I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that they manufacture hundreds (thousands?) of guitar each day. Quality control must suffer somewhere.
Why else would they choose to do this for instance? A body made of two pieces of wood is nothing strange, but usually the manufacturers try to bookmatch the pieces and do it at the centerline. This below, an expensive example of a Fender AM Pro Strat, to me just says "let's use these wood scraps that's lying around before starting over again doing another hundred bodies tomorrow ...".

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Another example of an expensive Fender with a body that looks like it belongs on a cheap asian strat copy.

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I've seen Fender guitars with bodies made of three pieces that were plus $2k earlier this year.

Anyway, rant over. YMMV and all that. I'll be quiet now.
 
I received my first Warmoth order in November, and the bottom edge of the first fret was up (not seated flush) just a bit. I was hoping I could just press it into place, but thought I read somewhere that they glue their frets in when they install them... they do. Had I tried to press them in, I might've damaged the neck. I messaged Warmoth, they had me send pics, then return the neck so they could take care of it. I was initially bummed to have to wait longer, but they got it back to me quickly. Already planning my next build. As for a final fret level, I had about 5 frets that needed some partial work, a little knocking down. For the most part it was already pretty tight.

hm. I think this was my first ever post here.
 
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