new neck - any install tips?

[Smpl9]

Ever been here?
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/index.php
There's a crab pot full of ideas.
Here's 1
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/253732-alternatives-nut-files.html
If you're getting your neck from Warmoth and they install the nut, it will be slotted and all you should have to do is adjust for string size & height. You can do this with sand paper, welder tip files, even guitar strings. Just go slow & be careful.
Read about doing setups. You will need to be able to do a good setup if you change the neck. Probably a couple of times.
That in itself will require certain tools.
So if you can do all of the basic stuff required to change a neck it is
"Yup. Just like that."  :guitarplayer2:

i have tools to generally set it up. i adjust the strings and intonation and adjust truss from time to time as i experiment with different strings. i've rewired it and changed pups a few times too. i use one of stewmac's books on guitar repairs to help guide me

Warmoth is installing "GraphTech Black TUSQ XL" on this neck.

hoping the fine tuning on the nut is minimal but i can certainly do some sanding and a bit of filing.  thx

 

[Smpl9]

When installing the tuners, be careful of the tuner screws. They ahve caused a headache for plenty of people.

Drill a pilot hole, slightly enlarge the entrance of the hole, measure your depth of the hole carefully (you won't want to break through!), use a lubricant when screwing in the screw.

Also be careful not to burr the screwhead. My solution for this is to use electronics magnifying visors so you clearly see the screw head and apply a good fitting screw driver to it. And watch it screw in with the visor on, so you can see it turning very clearly. You do not want the screwdriver to slip at all. A damaged screw head will mean that it will be harder to remove in the future. Use jewellers' screw drivers for this (available at most electronics stores, quite cheap).

ok, i have those tools, no problemo there. thanks for the heads up. think i'm good to go

 

[Smpl9]

>> http://www.tdpri.com/forum/index.php

yep been to that site many times just never saw that exact thread but have it book marked now

if one were to buy a used set like these:
   
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Guitar-nut-file-set-used-/120703630232?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item1c1a7f3b98

for these sizes,

    sizes (E) .047", (A) .040", (D) .027, (G) .019, (B) .015, (E) .013,

then the player can only use those size strings? i usually experiment with 9's, 10, & 11's. i can't recall if i asked this, but you have to use the exact matching file/string size?

slots should be a little wider than string, yes?

 

[Cagey]

I wouldn't buy used files - they're consumable. At least, I wouldn't pay that much for them. Maybe at $10, you could use them to clean things. Besides, the smallest file in that set is .013, which is too big unless you're SRV's tech.

The 8 pc. set Warmoth sells is reasonably priced at $69, and gets high marks for quality.

Gauges include: .010", .013", .017", .024", .032", .036", .040" & .050"​

As for perfect sizing, you can start from a smaller size and tilt the file to widen the slot slightly if needed. It's something you develop a feel for. Strongly recommend you practice on your little brother's guitar(s) first <grin>

Also, blank nuts are cheap, even for good ones. Buy some spares when you buy the files.

 

[Smpl9]

I wouldn't buy used files - they're consumable. At least, I wouldn't pay that much for them. Maybe at $10, you could use them to clean things. Besides, the smallest file in that set is .013, which is too big unless you're SRV's tech.

The 8 pc. set Warmoth sells is reasonably priced at $69, and gets high marks for quality.

Gauges include: .010", .013", .017", .024", .032", .036", .040" & .050"​

As for perfect sizing, you can start from a smaller size and tilt the file to widen the slot slightly if needed. It's something you develop a feel for. Strongly recommend you practice on your little brother's guitar(s) first <grin>

Also, blank nuts are cheap, even for good ones. Buy some spares when you buy the files.

what the heck, i'll get em along with the extra practice pieces! thx

 

[stubhead]

A lot of this depends on your previous experiences working with small tolerances, and your ability to SEE small stuff. At the age of 53, I resort regularly to an Optivisor with 2X and 2.75X lenses, and a 10X jeweler's loupe. I mean, you can pretty much cut everything bigger than the B string slot with varying thicknesses of sandpaper folded over a nail file... but only if you have a very clear picture of why you're doing what you're doing, and you know your tools. (I personally use abrasive wet/dry sandpaper to do a lot of stuff like leveling frets that others use files or diamond files to do - I just know that stuff pretty well, and consistency is a result of familiarity with your methods). If you're working to the highest professional standard, when you press the strings down at the second fret, the high E should clear the first fret by about .005" - half it's diameter. The low E should clear by about .010" or so. LMII sells something called the Zona saw:

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Knives+%26+Saws&NameProdHeader=Zona%99+Saw

It comes with three different blades of usefully different widths. Also the smallest saw blade in an X-Acto set is usable for the .010" slot. LMII also has an extremely useful file called a "pippen" file:

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Rasps%2FFiles&NameProdHeader=Pippin+File

A pippen file has a continuously-varying width on both edges from maybe .015" out to bass string low E widths.

I highly highly recommend to anyone laying in to this stuff,  that you first buy Dan Erlewine's "Guitar Player Repair Guide." And read every section that applies to what you want, it's a good way to assess your comfort level. Even if you still pay people to do some of this, that book will still save you thousands of dollars over your lifetime, because you'll recognize if a tech guy is blowing smoke. Erlewine shows the method of using stacked feeler gauge blades that makes it impossible to cut nut slots too deep. And yes, the slots can be wider than the strings, as long as they angle back toward the tuners so that the string breaks over a single point of vibration. I change string gauges a lot, and once I've set up for 10-46, I may only have to adjust a bit to lay on some 12-56's for slide - and I can usually go back to the 10's with no problem.

I won't even mention the dreaded toilet paper/superglue trick, because it's so wrong and bad  - but it works great if you goink a single slot. Well OK - you cut a piece of TP as small as you can get it to fit a doubled piece inside the nut slot, then you drip a single drop of superglue on it. The TP isn't structural, it just hold the glue in place. Then you refile the slot. Luthiers do this, but you're not supposed to know about it.  

It is useful to know that jewelers, gunsmiths and watch repairmen use many of the exact same tools as guitar techs, only they don't pay three times as much for them..... I have a few files I bought as "nut files", but I just grab all 15 or however many I own, and the bespoke nut files don't get used much. One very useful file to track down is a small flat triangle shape with teeth on only the widest side, because it will widen nut slots without deepening them (a hazard of the sandpaper-wrapped-nailfile that must be noidally watched).

 

[Hbom]

"It is useful to know that jewelers, gunsmiths and watch repairmen use many of the exact same tools as guitar techs, only they don't pay three times as much for them"
I can't say I agree with this completely. Gunsmiths pay for speciality tools too. Just about everything costs more at Brownells than it does at the hardware store, just like it does at Stew-Mac.
I think the best way to save on tools is to buy them before someone turns them into a 'speciality' tool.

 

[Smpl9]

A lot of this depends on your previous experiences working with small tolerances, and your ability to SEE small stuff. At the age of 53, I resort regularly to an Optivisor with 2X and 2.75X lenses, and a 10X jeweler's loupe. I mean, you can pretty much cut everything bigger than the B string slot with varying thicknesses of sandpaper folded over a nail file... but only if you have a very clear picture of why you're doing what you're doing, and you know your tools. (I personally use abrasive wet/dry sandpaper to do a lot of stuff like leveling frets that others use files or diamond files to do - I just know that stuff pretty well, and consistency is a result of familiarity with your methods). If you're working to the highest professional standard, when you press the strings down at the second fret, the high E should clear the first fret by about .005" - half it's diameter. The low E should clear by about .010" or so. LMII sells something called the Zona saw:

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Knives+%26+Saws&NameProdHeader=Zona%99+Saw

It comes with three different blades of usefully different widths. Also the smallest saw blade in an X-Acto set is usable for the .010" slot. LMII also has an extremely useful file called a "pippen" file:

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Rasps%2FFiles&NameProdHeader=Pippin+File

A pippen file has a continuously-varying width on both edges from maybe .015" out to bass string low E widths.

I highly highly recommend to anyone laying in to this stuff,  that you first buy Dan Erlewine's "Guitar Player Repair Guide." And read every section that applies to what you want, it's a good way to assess your comfort level. Even if you still pay people to do some of this, that book will still save you thousands of dollars over your lifetime, because you'll recognize if a tech guy is blowing smoke. Erlewine shows the method of using stacked feeler gauge blades that makes it impossible to cut nut slots too deep. And yes, the slots can be wider than the strings, as long as they angle back toward the tuners so that the string breaks over a single point of vibration. I change string gauges a lot, and once I've set up for 10-46, I may only have to adjust a bit to lay on some 12-56's for slide - and I can usually go back to the 10's with no problem.

I won't even mention the dreaded toilet paper/superglue trick, because it's so wrong and bad  - but it works great if you goink a single slot. Well OK - you cut a piece of TP as small as you can get it to fit a doubled piece inside the nut slot, then you drip a single drop of superglue on it. The TP isn't structural, it just hold the glue in place. Then you refile the slot. Luthiers do this, but you're not supposed to know about it.  

It is useful to know that jewelers, gunsmiths and watch repairmen use many of the exact same tools as guitar techs, only they don't pay three times as much for them..... I have a few files I bought as "nut files", but I just grab all 15 or however many I own, and the bespoke nut files don't get used much. One very useful file to track down is a small flat triangle shape with teeth on only the widest side, because it will widen nut slots without deepening them (a hazard of the sandpaper-wrapped-nailfile that must be noidally watched).

hey stubhead,

i was just thinking, is there a webpage that shows what strings should clear at the first fret when pressing on the second fret? or is the half-diameter a general rule?

i have the "Guitar Player Repair Guide" 3rd edition which is how i learned to setup my guitar and re-wire it. but never worked on the nut before.

you would use that zona saw on a nut that is already slotted? they have a cool string height guage i'd get if i had the money to spend.

 

[stubhead]

If I had a Tusq nut that was already slotted in the correct places and it was just a bit too hard to play an F chord (in tune!) I'd be pretty happy, because a lot of the drudgery is already over. You really want to think about what a "perfect nut" would look like and act like, for your OWN style of playing. I haven't picked up the 3rd edition of Erlewine's book but I'm sure he left in the parts about talking to the customer about what he wants his guitar to do..... it's kind of an oblique point, but you can be sure that Guthrie Govan's guitars will be set up a lot differently than Keith Richards, John Scofield vs. Tom Morello, etc. If you want it to be easy and untiring to play, the lower the better. But every twank and buzz against the frets is musical tone lost. And, guitarists like Jerry Garcia, Eric Clapton and Pete Townsend spent a lot of time singing and playing rhythm at the same time, and their guitars had to be foolproof during the verses,so they're set up to function well acoustically - i.e. high, stiff action. Garcia had .030" clearance at the first fret on both E's!

I just scanned through the chapter on "setups of the stars" in Erlewine's book, and it's clear the blues guys especially like at least .010" clearance at the first fret and .020" to .030" on the low E. It makes it a lot easier to bend strings when they're high enough you can push on the side of the string, not down on it. And you can be absolutely sure that their 1st-position F chords are horribly out of tune, and the little D chord on the top three string is going to be worse than that. Why do you think B.B. King never plays rhythm... :toothy12:

So in other words, no one can tell you what's best for what you want to do, you have to figure it out by playing with too much relief in the neck, too little relief, a nut that's too high and a nut that's too low.... but I 'll leave you with the feeler gauge trick. Stew-Mac sells a set of 11 feeler gauges for $25, but you can get a set with 20 gauges for less than $10 at any auto parts store. They're usually kind of oily, you have to wash (and DRY) them. The trick is figuring out the right combined thickness. Let's say your frets are .045" tall. You don't get that by reading the box, you get that by putting something straight across two of them then trying to cram the feeler gauges through. Say you want to start out trying a string height above the first few frets of .015". You just add that to the fret height and come up with: .060"  - above the actual fretboard. It's easiest to add up the actual needed measuring thickness by adding gauges with an odd number. So, what's 0.060" divided by five? Hmmm. .012"!

Because it's five, you then unfold the .012" feeler gauge, and the two above it, and the two next lower ones.

Wat's .014" +.013" +.012" +.011" + .010" ?!? Ooh goody - it's .060"! So you take those five stainless steel feeler gauges folded out together, and you hold it right up against the front of the nut. Now because the feeler gauges are sitting right on the front edge of the nut - you just CAN NOT cut any deeper than the .060" you wanted to. WHAT!!! You did... :sad1: How? Oh, because you didn't make sure the nut was seated on the bottom of the slot - well don't DO that. Since you simply can't go too deep, you can concentrate or making the slot perfectly parallel with the string path, you can make SURE you're angling the saw down towards the headstock so the string will be coming off the very last front of the nut, with nothing to vibrate against....

Of course you could divide .060" by three, and use the .019" ,020" and the .021" instead. But they might be too stiff to flex across the board, and the one thing you can't do is let the feelers creep away from the nut, or all will be lost. And this is the part we print in little tiny letters:

Disclaimer: next time you vist Warmoth, you might as well just buy five nut blanks because until you've "blown the nut" it is a time-honored right of passage.