Neverending Fret Buzz - Advice Needed

[myramyd]

Hey Guys,

I have a Warmoth Tele that I have never been able to get to a usable state because of extreme fret buzz. I'm looking for a little advice as to what step I should take next. Here is a brief history of the last 3-4 years with the guitar:

• Warmoth Tele Body & Neck
• Neck is 24.75 Tele Conversion Neck with SS frets and is Maple/Maple compound standard thin, etc.
• Vintage bridge with brass saddles, 10-46 strings
• I prefer low action and straight relief on my other guitars but, have tried a variety of setups with this one.
• The guitar is beautiful and where the guitar doesn't buzz, it is seriously one of the best sounding guitars I've played or heard.
  

1. Got the guitar put together around 3-4 years ago, had extreme buzz (sitar like) between the 5th-8th frets, no matter where I set the action or relief. Came from Warmoth with quite high nut slots as well. Even with around 1/4" action at the 17th fret, the sitar was a buzzin'

2. Took guitar to first tech for a fret level and nut slot lowering. Came back with crazy high relief and action, buzz was still there but not as bad. He told me that SS frets will always sound "sharp" and that I needed high relief on a guitar like this. He lowered the nut slots by around .0001" at most. After a few days of the new strings settling in, it was apparent that the sitar buzz was still there. For fun, I adjusted the relief back to straight and lowered the action to around 1/16" and it was unplayable. I'm not sure if he actually did a fret level.

3. Took guitar to second guitar tech. He did a fret level but did not change the nut slots. Came back again with very high relief and action (around 1/4" at 17th fret, slightly less buzz but still there. He tells me the neck needs high relief also (which I don't think I believe). After a few weeks, guitar still unplayable--sitar buzz between 5th and 8th frets no matter where you set the action and/or relief.

4. Took guitar to third tech (I have now spent more than I paid for the neck itself). He lowered the nut slots to where I would consider the correct spot. He did a fret level. Came back AGAIN with very high relief. I would guess it around 2mm based on the only ruler I had at the time. In my opinion that falls outside normal, as all of my other 10 guitars have nearly straight relief with no issues whatsoever. This time the action was at least normal. The buzz seemed to be gone when I picked up the guitar. I let it sit inside it's case for around a month and when pulling it out, the sitar buzz between 5th-8th crest was back. The relief and action hadn't changed.

5. Not trusting the techs, I decided to invest in my own tools from StewMac. I did a somewhat subtle fret level (tried not to take too much off just in case). Lowered the relief to just a hair above straight, lowered action to around 3/32. Now most of the fret buzz is gone, although the 5th-8th fret range is  still there a little but not as bad. Some days it is worse that others--which is strange. It seems to get worse over time. The 3rd string however, is still like a sitar. The 5th fret is almost fretted out completely, the buzz continues from the 5th all the way up the neck to around the 17th fret. I can raise the action as high as the bridge will go and it does not go away. Changes in relief does not help either. Checking carefully with a Fret Rocker, I cannot detect any rocking anywhere.

I'm honestly at the point where I'm ready to just order a new neck. I now know that I cannot trust any guitar techs in this area (Utah) so, I'm half tempted to just order a flat radius neck (9.5") so I can at least use a radius block if there are issues. All together with techs and tools, I have bought this first neck 3-4 times over.

Did I just get a lemon neck or is there something I am missing? Any help or advice as to what I should try next?  ???

It sucks that I haven't been able to use this guitar for anything other than an art object. I would like to start gigging with it!

Thanks,
J

 

[Cagey]

Usually, "sitar-like" sounds originate at the nut or bridge. But, you're saying it's limited to a range of frets, which sorta points to a very slightly high fret up the scale from where the problem shows up. You talk about the 5th to 8th fret, so maybe the 9th or 10th fret is a bit proud.

Another thing is the relief. Going by how you refer to it I'm not sure that we're talking about the same thing. At the risk of telling you things you already know, let's define that.

Neck Relief refers to a concave transition from the 1st to about the 18th fret. If you laid a perfect straightedge along the length of the fretboard between those frets, any relief will show up as a gap between the straightedge and the frets midway along that line.

Neck Bow is just the opposite - there's a convex transition from the 1st to about the 18th fret. In other words, the frets in the middle are higher than those at either end when viewed along a plane. That will make for an unplayable guitar.

Straight is just that - if you lay a straightedge along the frets, you can't get a .001" feeler gauge between the straightedge and any fret along the length of the fretboard.

"Action" is the distance the string sits at rest above the fretboard.

You want some relief. There has to be room for the string to vibrate without hitting anything. Normally, I set that for about .012"-.015" at the 7th-8th fret. Depending on how good your fretwork is, that dimension will vary.

If your neck is straight, you're going to have string noise that will range between a buzz (for unlevel frets) and somewhat dead (for very level frets), unless the action is set somewhat high. Some shredders will set their necks up this way with a low action, because with an electric you can sorta get away with it, given enough compression/distortion/amplification.

You never want any bow.

The crown of a fret itself can cause sitar-like sounds if it's too flat, but not perfectly so. What you'll hear is the string hitting the fret you're at. No buzz, because the string travel is too small at that point, but you get that singing sort of noise that makes you wanna do something about it.

What kind of neck is it? If it's just a Rosewood over Maple part, they're pretty inexpensive. You may be better off with a new neck. Sometimes, parts are just haunted <grin> Problem is, it'll still need to levelled/crowned/dressed/polished to get professional results when playing. So, you're back in that loop. Although, this time you could send it somewhere that does that kind of work, like here. Then it would only be a one-time deal. No looping.

If it's a higher-end neck, or has some tricky finishing that would be difficult to duplicate reasonably, or it's something you're attached to for whatever reason, it's quite likely you can salvage the neck you have. Worst case is you refret the bloody thing, although that would be an extreme solution I'd reserve for something very dear.

 

[myramyd]

Hey Cagey,

Thanks so much for your considered reply--I greatly appreciate your thoughts. This has become like chasing a dragon or unicorn at this point. I'm hoping it's not haunted but, I know what you mean there. I have a beautiful Mexi-Strat that is just dead sounding no matter what I do. I'm hoping this Tele is salvageable as the tone really is amazing. When you hit open chords with it, it's like angels talking to each other. Get past the 5th fret and the devil shows back up and buzzes like crazy.

It's a birdseye maple neck with matching fretboard. It does look nice. It was a "bonus" birdseye, since it didn't cost much more than normal maple. Not as heavily figured but, enough to see it.

It's very possible there is one high fret somewhere. I don't really think any of the techs I sent it to did much of an actual fret level. The first one I'm pretty sure did zero leveling at all since all he did was complain about SS frets ruining his tools and charged me twice as much as the other two.

Right now the relief is somewhere around .01"--which is worth mentioning as I've noticed the relief drifts up and down a lot, which is really strange to me considering it's a Warmoth Pro neck. I thought the truss rod would be more solid than that. My Fender and Gibson guitars don't drift much other than the change from hot to cold weather. It drifts as much as my 1992-1995 Ibanez guitars do, which have ultra-thin necks without much reinforcement! I'm hoping one of the techs didn't break something by tweaking it too hard.

The action I like to be around 3/64-treble and 1/16-bass side as I play a lot of leads. On this guitar I can't get below around 3/32-treble and around 7/64-bass without buzz all over the neck, which is way higher than I like it and higher than all my 5 gigging guitars--all stock Fender, Gibson, & Ibanez with no fret levels ever, even being well over 10 years old each. The techs were giving it back to me around 1/8" action with around .03" relief, which to me really is Jerry Douglas territory (i.e. whip out the Dobro slide).

I think what I may do is just be brave and do a more aggressive fret level myself. Like I said, I bought the tools from StewMac so, even if I ruin it I probably won't be in any worse place that a refret or another neck. I'm not real sure the conversion scale is working well for me with a Tele anyway. I may be happier with a 25.5" scale neck to get that snappier Tele feel.

Anyway, thanks again. If I build the courage to try the leveling out I will report back and see what difference it made.  :icon_tongue:

J

 

[stratamania]

I recently completed my first levelling (after a practice run on an old neck) and it's enjoyable to do once you get going. It sounds like this neck is a good opportunity to try it out, if it works out you have a playable guitar, if there is something more wrong the neck won't be worse off and as you said you could use it for a slide guitar.

It's a win either way.

My tools worked fine on stainless steel, it just is not quite so easy to work as nickel frets which are softer so requires more application in the use of the tools.

 

[stubhead]

I can't really get my mind wrapped around the notion of "aggressive" leveling vs... "passive?" "Tame" leveling? It's either "level" or "not", "right" or "wrong." It would be beyond mere derangement to take the strings off, dick with the trussrod, tape off all the frets, break out all your files and sandpaper and straightedges and the high-test caffiend (mix about 1/3 ESPRESSO beans with yer French roast, Woogie!) and ink'm and all the magnifiers for dese po' 55-year-old eyes, and then -

NOT LEVEL THE FRIGGIN FRETS!!!

'til they're... like, level.  :icon_thumright:
'til they're like... NOT UN-level anymore.  :icon_scratch:
Damn now I am feeling some aggression. HIDE THE AXE, EUGENE!

gonna go level me some cinderblocks... m'am i think yer poodles stickin up too high....


If all that up above there is absolutely true, I would conclude that your bridge is phuqued up. If everything starts buzzing when you lower the action, the strings aren't coming off the saddles at a steep enough angle, or some kind of...  THING ... is actually loose and banging around somewhere. You can at least test for that with another neck of any sort, beater-banger-borrow'm-etc.

 

[rspst14]

I see that this topic is a few months old, hopefully you got your problem sorted out.  If not, I highly recommend sending it out to be leveled with a Plek machine.  I do this on all my Warmoths, and it completely eliminates fret buzz when done properly.  The luthier who does the level could also check the nut and saddles to see if there is something other than uneven frets that's causing the sitar sound.

I've had Plek work done by both Philtone Guitars in Baltimore and Weber Custom Guitars in Ohio, and would recommend either of them.

 

[Tony Raven]

StübHead -- thank you for such a reasoned, calm, & dead-on response. :icon_thumright: I totally agree with you but MY coffee's not brewed yet.

myramyd -- to use a highly technical lutherie term, you got hosed. When something's beyond my skills, & I take an axe in to an actual money-chargin' bench guy, & he doesn't know how to fix it, one thing he does NOT do is dick around with it... & he especially doesn't go ahead & dick around while on the clock. (I've used four Minneapolis shops, all primo in different stuff.) He calls me & asks if it's okay to proceed on (paid) guesswork; if not, I might pay $20 for his diagnostic work.

I would be ashamed to charge someone for a 1/4" 12th-fret relief if I'd been doctoring a 1975 crapbox Spiegel acoustic. Even with $20 Affinity Strats from garage sales, it's rare that I don't get the 12th below 2 mm before I even go after the trussrod. The mantra is ".007 at 7."

Got a long-shot, though, & the persistence of your problem causes me to wonder. Any chance the following could apply?

Last year, I got a bass in with some buzz issues. Played it unplugged with flatpick & sure enough there it was, especially 5-8 on the D. But it didn't sound "right" to me, as if the buzz was all coming from my left hand rather than resonating in the body or the dubby string. I cranked the action to near-unplayable, & the noise was still there. Put the height back down, then found that the same notes on the A also got some buzz.

Aha. :redflag: Loosened the trussrod, & the noise stopped.

Being a piece of tempered steel under stress, the rod tries to vibrate when the bass puts out tones near the rod's "tuning."

The repair is on hold, but I still don't know what I'm gonna do. The "most logical" fix would be to pop the fingerboard off (yah, NOT a Fender!), look for the worn spot (I figure it's the fundamental, so midpoint), & pare a little wood away. The "easiest" would be to unscrew the rod :sad1:, wrap a bit of cello tape around the spot, reinstall the rod, & resign myself to repeating this every year or three. The "quickest" would be to pour the cavity full of beeswax & hope for the best -- the wax will damp the rod for years, but will eventually be pushed back by the vibrations.

 

[NovasScootYa]

I'll be happy to assist you...On a new Warmoth neck once frets are file leveled or file unleveled you might as well throw the neck in a trash can or with full disclosure sell it on eBay.  Obviously the tech knew file leveling wasn't the answer to your problem and being as he could not put back what he took off he chose to raise the action and hand it back to you. 

Never listen to anyone who tells you to file level frets on a Warmoth neck. You cannot expect 22 arched frets on a wooden platform to remain level due to weather changes, changing strings, adjustments, vibration, storage, etc. Even though Warmoth does a superb job with frets some pop up over time and have to be located with your fret rocker and reseated or in some cases spot leveled. File leveled frets eventually pop up like Tulips in springtime and you're out money, time all for nothing other than perhaps a Lesson Learned.

Setup for Pro Necks begins at the heel where you basically flatten the neck...not all at once but gradually and carefully. If you go heavy handed and backbow the neck the board will spit the frets out, so to speak.
Next it's working on the fret ends and board edges by rolling them together as one and tapering off to around the 14th fret leaving as much board as possible to the 22 fret. This takes using various radius blocks and knowing where and when to stop. Next a total of 44 fret ends are dressed and everything is blended in.  And after you've heated up the fret ends with files and sanding blocks you begin searching the neck for high frets and reseat them.
Next you'll use various grades of Micro-Mesh wrapped around a fret file to polish the frets and after polishing you'll carefully search the neck again for any high frets. After all the fret checking setup rest assured a couple or more frets will pop up over time. The instrument may or may not be effected by a few wacky frets but your fret rocker will be effected. No matter how well the instrument plays the fret rocker is not supposed to rock...bada boom.

Next check the heel adjustor to make sure it is still tight.  And use one extended finger placed on an allen wrench to take the slack (if any) out of the side adjust.

Mount the neck and worry about how the instrument will feel and play acoustically...electrics are for another day.
Use an old set of strings to setup the instrument or at least an old low E and A. New strings are higher exiting the grooves and saddles and that screws up adjustments.  Neck relief low E string should be around .008" at the 7th fret while holding the string on the 1st and 17th frets.  Loosen the strings a bit to use the side adjust, adjustments are made gradually over time.

Checking string height at the nut...You'll need a set of inexpensive automotive feeler gauges...Hold the low E string down on the second fret.  Next measure the distance or gap between the top of the first fret to the bottom of the low E string. The approximate clearances are: Low E) .010"  A) .010"  D) .009"  G) .009" B) .008" E) .007"
Adjust the nut either by deepening the grooves with nut files or use a file to make a row of teeth on a feeler gauge or by raising the nut with a strip of paper, etc.  In your case you can worry about all the many finer details after you know you have a good neck.
Next set the string height above the 12th fret to whatever Gibson uses being as you have a shorter scale; the action should be able to go lower with a shorter scale neck.

I highly doubt your problem was ever with the frets.  The problem sounds almost like the overhang was tight against the pickguard, etc.
The last standard thin Warmoth Pro I used long ago was easy to adjust. I mean it followed whatever the double expanding rod wanted it to do.
What all of this adds up to is...you need a new neck.  Pro necks need wood and the more of it the better because a lot of wood is missing due to the double rods and side adjust.  Consider a CBS headstock and/or as thick a profile as you can handle comfortably...and perhaps an Indian Rosewood board with the SS wire.

You did not say what strings you were using other than the 10-46 gauge. Some strings can be rattle traps like some necks can be lemons or turned into lemons.

 

[myramyd]

Hello Everyone,

Sorry, I didn't know there were updated replies to this thread. But, here is an update. I never have figured this one out.

I have all the tools now to do my own fret leveling and nut adjustments. I bought the videos from StewMac but haven't watched them yet. My plan now is to watch the videos and do an "aggressive" leveling (haha--just joking). What I mean is that I plan to do the Sharpie marker method and take them all down to match. I do plan to take the neck off and check the truss rod as well just to see if it's been tweaked too far or anything else strange. I will check the other items mentioned as well.

I have to say that in addition to the massive sitar buzzing in random spots, the neck itself FEELS terrible to hold in my hand. I don't know if it's the lack of rolled edges or what but, it feels like holding a rectangular piece of wood--not comfortable at all. I can't figure it out. I have guitars with thick and thin neck profiles, from 7.25" to 20" radii and they all feel at least 80%-100% comfortable to me but this one doesn't. I have around 15 guitars, most of not the best quality and none have ever had this type of problem with buzzing or feel. I only have one other compound radius neck (Jackson USA Custom Shop) and despite being 22 years old it is dead perfect everywhere.

I'm almost at the point of just ordering a flat radius genuine Fender replacement neck and ditching this altogether. That's why I thought the leveling won't hurt since I may not keep the neck if it doesn't help. At least with flat radius necks it seems easier to get things figured out. Not sure if I or any of the techs in Utah can handle working on the Warmoth stuff (even though they claim to). Either that or I just plain got a lemon neck.

The other day I pulled about a dozen Teles off the shelf at GC and they all felt from decent to nice and no buzzing anywhere obviously regardless of price. It really makes me regret going with Warmoth now--4 years and all this money spent I could have bought a Custom Shop Fender and been playing the guitar! Not sure I would recommend anyone go this route unless they are already a tech or have unlimited money to chase setup issues. It makes me feel a little ripped off to be honest. Now I don't really have any cash left to keep putting into this and I need a Tele.

To answer the question about the strings, this has had 4 string changes--twice were D'Addario, one Ernie Ball, and one Fender Stainless Steel strings. They all buzzed exactly the same.

As far as the truss rod--I have tried loosening it a fair amount and tightening it (all within reason) and it had no effect. The techs I took it to had loosened the hell out of it. I can't say that's the issue since the buzzing didn't change at any point regardless of truss rod tightness or relief. Right now it's nearly straight.

How much does a Plek setup cost? I would obviously have to ship it out as well.

I have a gig coming up that looks to be a huge project with lots of dates and this guitar would be perfect for it. So, I would like to get it playable somehow but I'm out of cash until that comes through.

Thanks,
J

 

[rspst14]

If anyone can sort this out for you, it's Phil Jacoby at Philtone Guitars in Baltimore.  I've had him Plek several of my guitars, and have always been very happy with the results.  He charges $160 plus shipping for a Plek level and setup.  He can scan it with the Plek and provide you with a highly accurate "map" of your fretboard that will identify problem spots and show how the neck reacts to changes in the truss rod.  He's always taken care of sharp fret ends at no charge along with the Plek service.

It's not cheap, but it's worth the money. 

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

This guy has some great videos related to leveling the frets (on a compound radius Warmoth neck btw) if your going to attempt this yourself.  Start with this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4R4wDnb1po - videos 12-23 all deal with the neck. 

 

[stratamania]

In this thread we have assumed that what is buzzing is the frets. But is this what is buzzing. Are there dead sounding notes along with the buzz or is it a rattle that is reminiscent of a buzz. If the frets are level or reasonably so and a buzz is still there it perhaps isn't the frets.

A loose part such as at the machine head mountings not being snug enough could rattle and cause what appears to be a buzz. I came across this once on a bass.

 

[stubhead]

I was just gonna say.... get your favorite OTHER guitar, esp. one that keeps straight through a few changes in weather. And your Warmoth. Now, sit down in a chair, put the guitar on your lap, and close your eyes. (Dead silence too). wrap your right arm around the body, grab the headstock with your left hand - and wiggle it back and forth, back and forth. Listen to a few notes warbling around, but you really want to feel it. And then do the same with the Warmoth. Does it warble all to beat schiste, like even more than a normie guitar? Because: I'm gonna go out on a limb here, I don't think it's the frets. Does this have the little doohickey side adjuster, and have you tried doing the "factory spec reset" that Warmoth sends along with it, and surely it be webbed somewhere? I haven't bought a doohickey in years, I don't understand them so I buy left-handed "pros" or something else.

But I THINK I remember something to the effect that the side-adjuster needs to be loosened BEFORE you jack the main truss rod nut? Which we are 100% certain has been happening with every tech, probe & adventure, correct? One thing I's sure DO remember about doohickeys is that they break a lot, but it usually doesn't matter, because then you can just adjust the trussrod like on a normal neck - as I said, I don't understand them.  :icon_scratch: This is a weirdie, as you say the buzzing is worst between frets 5 and 8 - and on every other single god-fearing red-blooded pretzel-necked single-rodded vintage Fender, the 5th though 8th frets are about the only ones that work right!  :laughing3: The dread "S-curve" screws everything below the 5th fret, and it might be O.K. till the 12th or 14th fret, when the other warp kicks in. The "mean tree" theorem lurks.... ???

If you decide to take a whack at the leveling and you have a fair amount of fretmeat to play with

 

[myramyd]

Thanks for the input. I plan to do some experimenting in the next several days. I also have a StewMac digital caliper and feeler gauges now that I didn't have before so I can make more accurate measurements of everything. I plan to really nail this down somehow or another.

My only other thought is whether it needs some fall-away on the upper frets? I'm seeing him mention that on the Erlewine video and this neck does not have much or any of that. Not sure if that is needed with the compound radius however? I haven't seen any mention of that on this forum so, I would think that would be important enough if it needed to be done.

But, it should be said that the buzzing was there after first installing and setting up the neck straight from the factory and nothing that myself or the techs have done have in fact changed the buzz by any factor. I followed all of the instructions that were included by Warmoth.

I have tried it with a capo and putting a metal bar underneath the strings ahead of the bridge just to eliminate the thought of rattling elsewhere. I wanted to take the bridge and nut out of the equation.

The only thing that has ever minimized the buzzing (although still there a little bit) was when two of the techs raised the relief and action insanely high. True, they may not have adjusted the truss rod correctly so that the side-adjuster needs to be reset now. I had told all of them about the side adjuster so, I would hope they didn't muck anything up but, one never knows!

I'm no newbie when it comes to guitar setups but I'm not full-on tech either. I have several other guitars that have some buzzing and I can clearly see why (dents in the frets, loose frets, high frets, etc.) and it's been very easy for me to narrow down the possibilities with those guitars.

I will report back after I do some trials and get clear measurements and see if I can come up with any further details. I can even make a video if need be. I want to make sure the truss rod is functioning properly and the relief is where it needs to be since that is perhaps the only real gray area right now. I have tried giving it too much relief with good action and it didn't help but, I want to have recorded measurements to go along with that so I know I'm not crazy.

Thanks again for everyone's help, I do hope to get to the bottom of this.

J

 

[croquet hoop]

Don't bother too much about the fall-away. It's meant to prevent choking strings when making big bends with low action (and then I am not sure it is still relevant on a compound radius fretboard), so I don't think it should be taken into consideration regarding your problem.

 

[stratamania]

Fall away on the last few frets isn't going to make the buzzing go away. I do start to get a feeling it isn't the frets. Perhaps also contact Warmoth for advise in case something's lose inside.

(Not related to the buzz discussion, but I put a slight fall away from around frets 17 - 22 but it's not a drastic amount and you can still do it on a compound radius, a lot of folks don't need it as the dust doesn't get disturbed that high on the lower strings but I use them)

 

[croquet hoop]

Another thing comes to mind: you mention the nut height, but an incorrect nut slot shape can also lead to some buzzing.

At this point, what I would do is localize the problematic area, (i.e. it buzzes when I play this or that string on that part of the neck) and then strum the thing and bring my ear closer until I localize with certainty the source of the buzz.

 

[DavyDave53]

To remove the nut out of the equation, put a capo on behind the first fret.

Does the problem change?

 

[myramyd]

Hello Everyone,

It took me a little longer to get to it than I thought but, here are all the current measurements. Buzzing starts at around the 3rd fret, ends around the 12th fret on 5 of the strings (the high e seems okay). The worst of the buzzing is from the 5th through about the 8th fret and the G string is very sitar-like and almost doesn't produce actual notes between 5-8th frets. As stated before, the buzz does not go away with a capo (nut height is pretty high) and does not appear to be coming from the bridge from what I can tell.

I can try raising the relief again but, with these current specs, it is very difficult to play--feels like playing barbwire on a baseball bat. The strings are hard to bend and press down. It all feels way higher than what I'm used to. I usually put the action a bit lower on my other guitars. I'm curious to hear any new thoughts.

Fret Height: averages .045-.046"

Relief: .008" at 7-8th fret

Action at 17th fret with capo on 1st fret: 1/16" (.06") high e, 5/64" low E (.07-.08")

Nut Heights:
- E: .023"
- A: .02"
- D: .018"
- G: .016"
- B: .018"
- e: .018"

Thanks for everyone's help so far, I have been re-reading all your advice and thinking things through. Much appreciated!!!
J

 

[stratamania]

Two things seem to stand out.

You say the nut is high and you are raising the relief.

Does this mean you are using the truss rod to try to move the neck closer to the strings?

The neck should not be convex to the strings, but either flat or a very slight concave relief and then the nut needs slotting correctly.