Neverending Fret Buzz - Advice Needed

[Cagey]

You say relief is .008" at 7-8th fret, but nut height is:

- E: .023"
- A: .02"
- D: .018"
- G: .016"
- B: .018"
- e: .018"

It would seem the strings are moving at the opposite angle they should be. Those are some tall heights, just for starters - they should be much shallower. Think .012 or less.

With the strings getting closer to the fretboard as you go up, they're going to be hitting frets even if they're not proud.

Lower the nut slots, maybe raise the bridge a tad or add some relief to the neck, and see where you end up.

 

[myramyd]

With the strings getting closer to the fretboard as you go up, they're going to be hitting frets even if they're not proud.

That actually does make some sense from a physics standpoint. I will play around with the relief and action using the capo always on just to get and see if starts to make a difference.

My next plan is to move it up to a .012" relief, reasonable action with the capo on and see what happens. When I say "raising" the relief that is what I meant before--going from .008" to .012" since perhaps .008" is expecting too much.

J

 

[myramyd]

Okay, moved it up to .012" relief, same action, with capo on 1st fret and while it improved the playability (I think as a result of eliminating the nut height) the buzz is still there. It has improved a fair amount. The G string 5-8th frets is still pretty bad.

If I put the capo on the 5th fret the buzz is the same. It's hard to tell where it's coming from exactly but, it's somewhere along the fretboard for sure.

J

 

[rspst14]

As others have mentioned, the nut is too high.  This probably explains why this neck doesn't feel as comfortable to play as the necks on your other guitars.  I've found that .010 at the high E and .015 at the low E is a good setup.  Low enough to play comfortably, but high enough that it won't buzz on the open strings, even if the nut slots eventually wear down and end up a little lower.

 

[Cagey]

Right. Those nut slots need to be lowered. The strings are ramping down toward the bridge, and they should be ramping up. Trying to fix that with relief is probably not going to work out.

 

[BlueTalon]

If anyone can sort this out for you, it's Phil Jacoby at Philtone Guitars in Baltimore.  I've had him Plek several of my guitars, and have always been very happy with the results.  He charges $160 plus shipping for a Plek level and setup.  He can scan it with the Plek and provide you with a highly accurate "map" of your fretboard that will identify problem spots and show how the neck reacts to changes in the truss rod.  He's always taken care of sharp fret ends at no charge along with the Plek service.

It's not cheap, but it's worth the money. 

It's not terribly helpful to a cash-strapped OP, but this is what I do also.  Anything with a neck issue like what the OP describes would go to Mike Lull in Redmond, WA, east of Seattle.  Besides being a master bass tech, he has a PLEK machine.  I swear by that thing.


I go in with a neck that has issues, I come away with a neck that has no issues.

 

[myramyd]

Hello Everyone,

Sorry for the long time away. I have reread this thread many times since and have been working on it slowly. I just thought I would report in and say more thanks to all that have chimed in.

I took apart the guitar and got the neck as straight as I could and going over it carefully with my fret rocker, some of the higher frets (17 and 21 especially) were pretty high (lots of rocking), so I did some very careful spot leveling to see if helps any. I had the same issue on an old Ibanez and it cleared that guitar up well so, I'm hopeful. I've ordered a new Gotoh modern Tele bridge that will be here next week just in case there is anything funny with the vintage one I have so, between the two I will see if the issue is solved or not. I think if it still has issues I will either find a Plek tech or just replace the neck since there wouldn't be anything logical left to do. I will lower the nut slots as well before I install the strings. I have a good feel for where all the measurements should be after making a spreadsheet of all of my other guitars' measurements everywhere!  :icon_biggrin:

I also ordered a new neck from Warmoth for a Strat body I have so, I will have a factory-fresh neck to compare it to. Hoping I won't have to do much to that one to get it up and playing.

Fingers crossed!
J

 

[stratamania]

If you lower the nut slots how are you going to determine where to lower them ?

If you go too low you will end up needing to replace the nut.

Here is one way to do it.

http://youtu.be/ErdbsrLM3dc

 

[myramyd]

Hello stratamania--already bought that device from StewMac, it's awesome! I have also measured the fret height at the 1st fret where each string travels across and will add the height to that so, I should be all set. That doesn't mean I won't screw it up but, at least I know have the right tools and measurements. I also have an extra TUSQ nut just in case. I plan to practice on two other less meaningful guitars. I already did my cheap mandolin and it went well.

Thanks,
J

 

[stratamania]

Ah good to hear, good tools and practice on something that doesn't matter too much is always a good combination  :icon_thumright:

 

[myramyd]

Okay, after spot leveling the higher frets, a new bridge, lowering the nut slots a little bit, I also ordered a notched straightedge and measured everything again. Here is what I observe now:

1- Overall the guitar plays better. The buzz is still there in the same spots but not as bad. I would say it's acceptable for live work but maybe not studio recording. The strings 10-46 are very stiff and hard to bend. (Note: this is a 24-3/4 conversion neck). I use these strings on this scale guitar for my main guitars so I'm very used to the feel of my Gibson SG and Les Paul.

2- Using the notched straightedge, the neck was perfectly flat when I put the new strings on but the frets curve upward as it gets closer to the nut. So, if you measure relief with the notched straightedge, the fretboard is flat (no relief--less than .002") while the frets measured with either a straightedge in the middle or using the string pressed down at the 1st and last frets method, there is about a .012" "relief" or curve at the 5th fret which then flattens out towards the 9th fret. So, in effect the 1st fret is much higher than the 9th fret. Strange...

3- After this I added back in about .008" relief using the notched straightedge, so .008" relief using the fretboard and now the buzzing is worse again but the playability is better (strings don't feel so tight and stiff--they feel just about right). The main buzz is around the 3rd to 8th frets on the higher strings.

Not sure where to go next--either just be happy with it how it is, adjust it back to straight and try 9-46 strings for a lighter feel, or just get a new neck (which might be cheaper than shipping it somewhere to get Plek'd)?

Any new thoughts or ideas are appreciated. I'm attaching a photo of it in case it helps to visualize.

Thanks!
J

 

[Cagey]

To my mind, notched straigtedges are a front counter tool just this side of useless unless you're quoting pricing for a total refret and need to know how much work you're going to have to do to create a proper bed for them. Otherwise, who cares? What if the thing is scalloped or worn?

The fretboard doesn't need to be level - the frets do. For a neck in use that's maybe only a little off, what matters is how level the frets are relative to each other, and the only way to know that is to use the truss rod to straighten the neck and put a good straightedge on the length. Once the thing is straight, you use a fret rocker to find the bad guys and attack those. Get the thing level, re-crown/polish/dress as needed, then put some relief back in. At that point, you should be golden.

 

[myramyd]

Thanks for your comments Cagey,

I get what you are saying. My thought was that this neck has barely been played on so the fretboard has not really worn in any way. I do have guitars with extremely worn fretboards but perfectly straight frets so, I relate to that. I wanted the notched straightedge just to make sure I had a reference point between the fretboard and frets to diagnose and that the fretboard wasn't the issue.

Right now the relief using the frets is at about .010" (9th fret) to .012" (5th fret), and the fretboard is .008" at the 9th fret but is pretty flat up around the 5th fret. On my other guitars the relief is highest around the 8th-9th fret so, the widest gap being at the 5th fret is strange to me. There is some kind of dip in the fretwork that might be causing the buzzing. So with a fret level might have to take a lot of metal off. I guess I could always refret it at some point and start over.

Anyway, used it for a rehearsal and it isn't too bad for live. I would hear the buzzing too much for studio work. Guess I will have to live with it.

J