Need Finishing Advice. First Project.

Musclecar67

Newbie
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4
:help: I'm building my first guitar. Its a hollow body Strat with an Alder top and Mahogany back. I want the entire guitar to be a satin finish like a Tung-oil, or Tru-oil would offer. The top of the guitar will be painted black (Just the Alder)  with a matching peg face.Competition stripes will be added, however they will not be painted, but rather taped off revealing the Alder underneath to create the stripes. The neck will be Maple/Maple, but I want to tint it a nice dark golden brown color. Member -CB- mentioned Mohawk powdered pigments in another thread that gained my attention; what can I use on maple? Warmoth told me all necks come with a sanding sealer will this make it possible to stain?. I wanted to use Tung or Tru-oil on the neck as well. The stripes will also be tinted the same color as the neck. Its complicated but I am in NO hurry and don't mind spending time on this.  Help me piece this together guys! Tx ~ Rob  :eek:ccasion14:
 
oil finishes and stain dont usually do the best - remember TruOil is, at best, a hybrid poly/oil mix.  Whereas Tung oil - pure tung oil - is an actual oxidizing oil that hardens on contact with air.

Dark maple... hard to do and make it not look blotchy, even with no sealer.  Maple is hard, and it just not absorb dye evenly.  Its hard to dye oil finishes without changing them.  You might want to try some dark tung oil (pure).

For the body.... mixing paint and oil is even worse.

May I humbly suggest getting some black nitro lacquer and using that, with semi-gloss nitro over it.  ReRanch black, and Deft semi gloss mix well, and are easy to get a good finish with.

You can use a toner - not powdered stain - buy Mohawk toner on the neck, then clear coat semi gloss nitro over that.  Its not hard to do.





 
What is toner and what does it look like, how is it applied? I wanted to put tung oil over the black paint... will this cause the oil to not absorb making it cloudy?  I'm not that experienced with finishing products, but I have always been good with my hands esp in the wood shop, so that said how hard is it to apply nitro cellulose finish? Do I need a spray gun, and if so are they expensive...what do I need? You recommended dark tung oil... ive never seen that can you supply any pictures? I love the look of nitro like on the highway one strats, does tung oil give the same look/feel even tho nitro is a poylmer? Lol maby I should just make it easy and have Warmoth do it, but I dont want a glossy neck/body  :-\  this is stressful. ~ Rob  :eek:ccasion14: 
 
I can't help you with the painting part, but I just finished my first guitar, a strat clone, and I finished it using only wood stain and Tung oil. I have done some wood working and had used Tung Oil on furnitureso I was familiar with it. For the Strat I used polymerized Tung Oil as (apparently) it dries harder and you can acjieve a higher gloss, if thats what you are after. I was, and it worked great, and the entire finishing process was only about a week, putting on two coats a day and sanding.
I'd post a pic but I'm not sure if thats allowed here. 
 
Musclecar67 said:
What is toner
how is it applied?

tung oil over the black paint

how hard is it to apply nitro cellulose finish?
Do I need a spray gun

dark tung oil

Toner, is a nitrocellulose transparent finish applied over grain filled wood, and under clear coats of lacquer.  I'd personally shoot one coat of clear, then tone, then clear coat over that.  That will make it come out more even toned.  Toner comes in an aerosol, ready to spray. 

Tung oil should be used over grain filled wood.  It is not suited for use over paint.  You can use it over "some" dyes, but... the maple used for necks does not dye well.  Mahogany does dye fairly well.  I've used pure tung oil over grain filled wood - and wood that was dyed.  I like an alcohol based dye on mahogany,  but again... on maple used in necks... its not the best, as that stuff just does not take a dye or stain well. 

The maple used in necks really needs a transparent finish - the toner.  Tung oil won't work with toner.  Toner is, essentially, nitro cellulose lacquer that goes on VERY thin and also is very subject to melting in to coats applied over it.  Thats how it works.  You shoot the toner, then clearcoat.  Here's the trick - you can shoot a tone of one shade for the whole neck, then shoot a darker shade over the edges, and do a nice burst on the neck.  Works great!  Same with a body, you can do that too.  Its "thin" enough that you need several passes to build up color.  Toner is made for the repair of fine wood furniture and as such, allows the repairman the ability to build up shades and color/density match the repair.  It works great on guitars.

Nitro - how hard is it.  Not hard if you use the right stuff.  I'm really into a product called "DEFT" which goes on very easily.  The trick with any finish is the proper use of that finish, and the proper surface prep.  Using a grain filler and sanding that grain filler down to about 400 grit will give you the proper smoothness under the nitro, to give you a nice finish without too much hassle.  When you spray nitro, you want things to be clean, so you wash each coat with naptha.  Sanding with 600 paper before washing and new coats is not a bad thing.  That allows the new coat to melt into the old.  The MOST important thing with nitro is to WAIT for it to dry a LONG time before final finish leveling and buffing it out.  That is, you need to wait at least 3 weeks for this.  Why?  Because it shrinks into the wood as it dries.  If you level it before its finished shrinking, then you'll get a nice finish that will look like crap in two weeks... because the finish has continued to shrink.  Thick finish coats need more time to shrink - as much as 8 to 12 weeks.  You dont have a drying booth (dry hot air), so time is your only tool there... and 3 weeks for a normal finish is about right.

DEFT is very good lacquer.  It contains a flow-out additive to help it self level and not orange peel or crater.  It contains an "anti-blush" so you dont get white clouds of trapped humidity in the finish.  It dries hard, and buffs very well.  The semi gloss finish is nice for necks, and will gloss up to a natural sheen where your hand rubs, it looks nice that way.... and can be rubbed out to full gloss if you like... although the full gloss finish is easier to do that with.  It dries to a very hard, factory like finish.  The only down side to Deft is that it also contains a UV inhibitor, which is great for preserving colors, but the finish itself just does not turn amber, like other nitro does (ie, old Gibson mellow looking ambered nitro finishes).  If you want it to age and look ambered, Deft is not for you.  Normally it takes quite a few years and UV exposure for that to happen, but... some go for it.  I dont.



 
-CB- I cant thank you enough for you help! I have read many post and your always in them.You always give full descriptions, and I respect the time you put into helping people, so thank you!  Just one more question to clarify. So I can buy a nitro toner that comes in different shades like light brown and dark brown? This is applied to the wood, or in my case neck as a first coast to give color. Then I use fine sand paper like 600 in between coats till I get the color I want, then after I shoot the clear nitro? How many coats of nitro would be good for a maple/maple neck? MY goal is to replicate the ERIC CLAPTON strat...I like the feel of the guitar and the sound, but I want to personalize it, and improve it by making it a hollow body with the natural finish that i'm partial to. I like the look of a worn "relic" guitar so the nitro is good for me, the burst method on the neck you mentioned sounds neat... could I make the neck & body look worn using the same method you said. And lastly I don't want to buy expensive spray guns... I noticed ReRanch sells them in a spray can with adjustable nozzle are they a good company? I went to click on there product list and it would not let me in...it asked me for a user name and password? whats that all about can you give me a few suggestions on where to buy these products? Thanks again -CB- ! You will be the first to see it when im done...though it will be awhile as I have to finish saving $ lol why do I have expensive hobbies!  :dontknow:  ~ Rob  :eek:ccasion14: :guitaristgif: 
 
To get "Eric Clapton Blackie" look:

1.) First shoot maple neck with ReRanch Fender Neck Amber till you get the desired vintage tint shade.
2.) Shoot one very light coat of nitro to seal
3.) Play guitar at least 4 hours a day for 4-5 years, never clean neck.
4.) Voila!
 
Musclecar67 said:
So I can buy a nitro toner that comes in different shades like light brown and dark brown?

This is applied to the wood, or in my case neck as a first coast to give color. Then I use fine sand paper like 600 in between coats till I get the color I want, then after I shoot the clear nitro?

How many coats of nitro would be good for a maple/maple neck? MY goal is to replicate the ERIC CLAPTON strat...

Ok, first you said you wanted a nice dark golden brown neck, then you said you wanted an EC looking nack.    Totally different animules. 

The ReRanch amber in aerosol will do the trick there for an EC looking neck.  For any other color, the Mohawk toners are tops.  Actually... I have it on good report, that at least "some" of the ReRanch aerosols are made by Mohawk.  Mohawk owns Behlin, another dye/finish company.  Mohawk is the "industrial/commercial" stuff, while Behlen is put in target markets.

For the amber, or other toned color, the process is as follows:
Using Mohawk or ReRanch colors, Deft clear gloss lacquer.
Clean neck with naphtha.
Grain fill with clear or tinted grain  filler, remove excess.
Sand to 400 grit smoothness
Apply one light coat of clear - do not sand.
Soon after initial drying, say in 30 minutes, apply toner to color.
Soon after that dries, say in 30 minutes, apply clear coat.
Soon after that dries, say in 30 minutes, apply and clear coat.
Soon after that dries, say in 30 minutes, apply a third clear coat.
Stick the neck away for ONE WEEK to dry, and dont let it touch anything - it must hang.
Take it out, and sand with 600 grit. No need to level, just scuff up the surface for better melt in of the next coats.
Clean with naphtha
Apply three more clear coats as you did above, no need to sand between coats if you recoat about 30 minute intervals.
Stick it away and let it dry THREE WEEKS.
Wet sand with 600 grit. 
At www.frets.com Frank Ford suggests kerosene as a wet sanding fluid, but... most use water.  I like Franks method but you might not.
Buff, by hand is fine, with some Turtle Wax white buffing compound (auto store, about $5 for a large amount) 
I just buff with a rag, and use lots of the ol' elbow grease, and you can get very close to a "buffing wheel" shine.  Keep in mind a buffing wheel is tricky to use, requires practice and will result in costly mistakes till you get the hang of it.

You pretty much do the same on the body.  ReRanch black will do your top just fine.  Keep in mind, apply the black over a clear coat or two, since you're looking for stripes and want clean, non bleeding lines.  If you do the bare wood.... you'll get tape goo in the pores, and the color will bleed under the tape.  Also when you shoot the initial clear, let it dry bout two weeks, then tape and shoot black, and get that tape off pretty quickly or it will harm the clear under it.  If there's tape goo, dont worry, just let the finish dry and the goo will come right off with naphtha.  Naphtha does not harm nitro at all, and is the preferred cleaner/degreaser.
 
Tx -CB- I didn't mean for it to sound like I want an Eric Clapton looking strat I mean the electronics action and feel of the neck sorry that was my fault. I have decided to just to a hollow body full Alder guitar to make it easy on myself. I'm going to use the Mohawk stuff. The guitar is going to be done in nitro body & neck. The neck is going to be a "relic" type look to accomplish that i'm going to use the method you stated above  "Here's the trick - you can shoot a tone of one shade for the whole neck, then shoot a darker shade over the edges, and do a nice burst on the neck.  Works great!"  The body is still up in the air its going to have stripes, but idk if i want a transparent black on Alder with a nitro finish or just a solid black nitro finish.... Nitro would give solid black a flat look to it right, like the highway one strat? Im good at drawing, so im going to sketch up a few ideas and post um, you know give um a  :icon_thumright:  or    :icon_scratch: Tx Guys!  ~ Rob
 
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I'm not sure if I showed this one before, but its one of the cheap faded SG's I picked up new, with a hard case for only $525 (shipped!).  Dealer lost his Gibson dealership, or rather, told them to stick it... and blew out all his stock.

I didn't like the red faded finish so redid it.  I call it black cherry burst (apologies to Warmoth on their phrase, but I did it first!).  You can see the bursting on the neck, headstock, and body.... done with Mohawk toners.  Dark red mahogany, and deep red mahogany, covered by DEFT.
 
That's an amazing finish!

I went to Wal-Mart today to check if ours had DEFT and sure enough they did.  Looks like they only carry the gloss and semi-gloss.  I'm assuming you buy the Mohawk toner online? I still have to check the local hardware store to see if they have some toner.

As far as sanding sealer, do you use it?  Or do you simply use a coat of the DEFT clear? I see on DEFT's website they sell a specific can of sanding sealer...

Oh, and lastly, how many cans of clear coat and toner do you need?? I thought I read somewhere you'd need 4 cans of clear coat for one guitar?

The finish I am after is somewhat like the old gibson "the sg" and "the paul" guitars... I found this pic on the net a while ago and saved it:

gibson_thepaul2.jpg

gibson_thepaul1.jpg


Can you do that with deft and mohawk on mahogany?

Thanks for these posts, this thread is a wealth of knowledge!!
 
Reeps said:
they only carry the gloss and semi-gloss

buy the Mohawk toner online

sanding sealer

how many cans of clear coat and toner do you need

finish I am after...."the sg" and "the paul" do that with deft and mohawk on mahogany?

In order:
WalMart sells gloss, semi gloss and satin finish Deft.  Your store must be out of the one variety, try another WalMart if thats what you want.

Find a local Mohawk Distributor:  http://www.mohawk-finishing.com  To the best of my knowledge, its not sold through hardware stores, but only through specialty distributors.

Instead of sanding sealer, you'll want grain filler, available from www.stewmac.com.    You can use a sanding sealer over the grain filler if you want.  Some woods benefit from that.  Woods like ash would be one that would benefit from it.... any really open grained wood, you'd want to grain fill then also use sanding sealer.  Wood like mahogany... sure why not, its not that expensive, although, you probably can get by with just grain filler.  Deft sanding sealer is fine.

The number of cans of clear you want to get, depends on the the type of finish you're looking for, and if you have any mistakes that need correction.  For a full gloss finish, I'd say six to eight cans of gloss.  For a semi-gloss finish, maybe five or six cans, as mistakes and such are less prone to showing and needing releveling/reshooting.  One can of toner will do more than one guitar, probably more than three.  You dont use much of it at all.  So one can of each color/shade.

The finish on "The SG" the "The Paul" is a satin over walnut.  If you're using a mahogany body, you can get that same color using Tandy ProDye "Buckskin" color.  Find it at Tandy Leather  http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com  You can find a local store or buy it online.  Using that over grain filled mahogany works very well.  Use a dark filler, either dark brown, or black.  Then dye, then clearcoat with Deft semi gloss.  The semi gloss finish will do well for "The Paul" look.  Know that if the finish "sinks in" to the wood a bit, thats desirable if you want to replicate that finish, because they really didn't grain fill those guitars very well (or at all, they're walnut, fairly fine grained as it is).  You can probably just shoot the whole guitar about 4 to 5 coats on one day, let it dry a few weeks and assemble, no buffing needed for "The Paul" look (ok maybe just a real light buff out with a dry cloth to get the excess spray dust off).

Hope that helps.
 
Wow that does indeed!  Excellent descriptions and info.

Many thanks, I really appreciate it.
 
=CB= said:
Musclecar67 said:
So I can buy a nitro toner that comes in different shades like light brown and dark brown?

This is applied to the wood, or in my case neck as a first coast to give color. Then I use fine sand paper like 600 in between coats till I get the color I want, then after I shoot the clear nitro?

How many coats of nitro would be good for a maple/maple neck? MY goal is to replicate the ERIC CLAPTON strat...

Ok, first you said you wanted a nice dark golden brown neck, then you said you wanted an EC looking nack.    Totally different animules. 

The ReRanch amber in aerosol will do the trick there for an EC looking neck.  For any other color, the Mohawk toners are tops.  Actually... I have it on good report, that at least "some" of the ReRanch aerosols are made by Mohawk.  Mohawk owns Behlin, another dye/finish company.  Mohawk is the "industrial/commercial" stuff, while Behlen is put in target markets.

For the amber, or other toned color, the process is as follows:
Using Mohawk or ReRanch colors, Deft clear gloss lacquer.
Clean neck with naphtha.
Grain fill with clear or tinted grain  filler, remove excess.
Sand to 400 grit smoothness
Apply one light coat of clear - do not sand.
Soon after initial drying, say in 30 minutes, apply toner to color.
Soon after that dries, say in 30 minutes, apply clear coat.
Soon after that dries, say in 30 minutes, apply and clear coat.
Soon after that dries, say in 30 minutes, apply a third clear coat.
Stick the neck away for ONE WEEK to dry, and dont let it touch anything - it must hang.
Take it out, and sand with 600 grit. No need to level, just scuff up the surface for better melt in of the next coats.
Clean with naphtha
Apply three more clear coats as you did above, no need to sand between coats if you recoat about 30 minute intervals.
Stick it away and let it dry THREE WEEKS.
Wet sand with 600 grit. 
At www.frets.com Frank Ford suggests kerosene as a wet sanding fluid, but... most use water.  I like Franks method but you might not.
Buff, by hand is fine, with some Turtle Wax white buffing compound (auto store, about $5 for a large amount) 
I just buff with a rag, and use lots of the ol' elbow grease, and you can get very close to a "buffing wheel" shine.  Keep in mind a buffing wheel is tricky to use, requires practice and will result in costly mistakes till you get the hang of it.

You pretty much do the same on the body.  ReRanch black will do your top just fine.  Keep in mind, apply the black over a clear coat or two, since you're looking for stripes and want clean, non bleeding lines.  If you do the bare wood.... you'll get tape goo in the pores, and the color will bleed under the tape.  Also when you shoot the initial clear, let it dry bout two weeks, then tape and shoot black, and get that tape off pretty quickly or it will harm the clear under it.  If there's tape goo, dont worry, just let the finish dry and the goo will come right off with naphtha.  Naphtha does not harm nitro at all, and is the preferred cleaner/degreaser.

This time sequence, how long to wait ... how many coats ... is great to hear about.
Much appreciated!







 
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