Neck size & wrist pain concerns

[ihavenothingprofoundtosay]

I've been pretty happy with my superwide + fatback neck for a while (though pairing it with the Firebird body means it's not always comfy in some positions), and recent tried out Robert Fripp's New Standard Tuning.  It really got me out of a creative rut - I love it, and have suddenly been coming up with a lot more new ideas.

The problem is my wrist has been aching during and especially after playing every time - I can't practice more than about 45 minutes, even when sitting in a chair or on a couch.  Some of it is in the hand itself; new standard has a lot more stretches across 3 or 4 frets, much more use of the pinky & ring in different positions.  But some of it is definitely in the wrist, as in pre-carpal tunnel.  There was a bit of an ache before, but it's been much worse with this different tuning.

One solution I've been thinking about is a smaller & shorter scale neck (I've always had a thing for the JagStang) and possibly a more contoured neck, since the Fatback is 1" the whole length.  But I don't want to swing too far to another extreme and find a neck to cramped for my relatively long fingers).  Maybe that's just an excuse for another build, which I don't have a definite need for right now, not to mention the budget. 

Any other thoughts or advice?  Are there exercises I should be doing?

 

[DavyDave53]

Get one of these for $199 and if you don't like it your not out a fortune.

If you do like it, you know what to do.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/squier-vintage-modified-jaguar-hh-electric-guitar

 

[Cagey]

It's unlikely the neck is the problem. Many players just don't hold their fretting hand properly. The dimensions of necks don't change so dramatically that it would cause playability problems. But, if your wrist is bent when you're playing, you're pretty much guaranteed to have trouble. More practice only makes it worse. The MTV videos where you see guys with their guitars hanging down around their knees are bullshit. That's theatrical production posturing designed to make them look badass. Nobody in their right mind would play that way unless they were interested in becoming crippled.

Watch this video, and the several dozen alongside on the same subject. They all say the same thing: straighten your wrist, or suffer. 

 

[stratamania]

Here is another useful video.

http://youtu.be/Jw3xRczH5vM

And also here is one from one of the guys over at the Fractal forum who works in physical therapy.

http://youtu.be/brPzQdBaSjg

They are both well worth a look.

 

[ihavenothingprofoundtosay]

Aha!  Good videos - very helpful indeed.  Upon some consideration and looking at my playing, it looks like a combo of all 3 factors:

- bad playing position: my wrist isn't close to straight.  I'm hardly Johnny Ramone-ing it up all the time, but the Firebird is awkward to hold higher up.

- the tuning: NST has a lot of barres & stretches I'm not used to, not so many open chords.  I find I'm twisting the hand & wrist a little while stretching my fingers wider.  It's a neat tuning with a lot of opportunities to learn more, but there's obviously a physical learning curve along with the mental.

- the neck: it's quite a reach to get to the C or even the G for some things, and barre chords with standard tuning weren't always easy either.  Superwides are great for fingerstyle picking and big fingered folk like me, but the reach around & across with the barre is an extra strain.

Looks like I'll either need to adjust my technique & be very careful with practicing NST. . . or build another guitar with a smaller neck.

:icon_biggrin:

 

[stubhead]

I ended up messing my hands up pretty good, mostly from many years of electric bass playing on top of full-time & more restaurant chef work, and a basic disregard for "rest" and "sleep" and all that other fuddy-duddy boring stuff. You can see quite a bit on videos - if you look at John McLaughlin, Santana, especially Jeff Beck, you see they NEVER do the wide shreddy stretches, 4-notes-per-string and all. Beck even uses the bar for all his vibrato and bending. Those guys can still play, while a lot of the technical guys seem to have disappeared. Paul Gilbert will last, because he skips strings instead of stretching his hand way out. And the "New Standard Tuning" is maybe a little optimistically named, but it's Fripp's way of getting a wider range without straining. If you do happen upon any of Jeff Beck's recent video with bassist Tal Wilkenfeld, pay attention to her left hand positioning - she'll be a cripple by the age of 40 if she keeps that up.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Frank Gambale's first video in the early 90's, SPEED PICKING, changed my technique. 
I started slinging my guitar up higher, utilizing strategic picking, and relaxing my hands more, which probably saved them because I was in lots of pain for a couple of years.  Even playing on 10's as I have for nearly 25+ years, my hands are still very relaxed when I play, and my fingers do not step a mile off of the fingerboard between notes.  That latency alone can contribute to why your fingers tense up to play fast.  Look at some players like Tony Macalpine.  It barely looks like he moving, because his fingers barely are moving.

 

[Tony Raven]

IME, when I start trying to pick up something new on guitar, I tense my lower neck (C3-C5) -- according to the various chiropractors I've had over the years. This pulls stuff out of line, & results eventually in shooting pains down my left arm, not unlike electric shocks from a bad ground.

Part of the problem for me is that, when I'm drilling something new, I sit on the sofa & slouch back. letting my hands practice while I watch TV -- training the muscle memory, but also doing unkind things to my neck & back. And since the back of my mind is worried about doing it wrong, I tense up, so that can't be helping any. Once I feel like it's sinking in, I spend more time strapped up & standing, & the pains don't show up.

My guitars run all the way up to a Harmony Rocket with the half-round neck, thicker than any of my acoustics; I play some slim necks, & even a Cort with the rounded V. And then there's five-string bass & mandolin. None seem to stand out as causing problems.

 

[ihavenothingprofoundtosay]

There's some great advice from John Petrucci here, starting at about 2:57.  Funnily enough, the URL includes "cramp"! (fine, it's actually CrAaMLpP, but close enough).  :laughing7:

Also, I've decided to switch back to standard tuning on this guitar, and either build a short scale, or a mandola/tenor guitar instrument tuned in 5ths.  I think for string tension, a fanned fret short scale (maybe 25.5" on C to 24" on the high G) would be best for NST, but the stretch there might still be a pain.  Plus, that's custom build territory, which is beyond my skills to do myself, and beyond my budget.  It's a bit of a shame, because the tuning has a lot of really neat applications.

Part of the problem for me is that, when I'm drilling something new, I sit on the sofa & slouch back. letting my hands practice while I watch TV -- training the muscle memory, but also doing unkind things to my neck & back.

I've done that for years without issue on my Carvin bass; but that's a much smaller neck, and I'm not ever barring across all 4 strings.  On guitar, it's much more of a problem.

 

[elfro89]

It's unlikely the neck is the problem. Many players just don't hold their fretting hand properly. The dimensions of necks don't change so dramatically that it would cause playability problems.

This. Unless there is some kind of medical complaint I'm not taking into account, bad posture and technique is always the cause of pain. It's normal for people to tense their muscles and then subsequently bend and contort their fingers/wrists/elbows/backs/shoulders all over the place when attempting unfamiliar stretches and movements. On a basic level this is the cause of pretty much all pain you will experience.

The motion should be comfortable with no strain and minimal effort, being no more strenuous than holding an apple. When attempting unfamiliar positions and movements it is normal to tense up, try to be highly aware of when you are doing this and make the conscious effort to relax your muscles and posture. There are however, two kinds of pain which are actually good indicators of progress, they are muscle fatigue and friction blistering on the tips of your fingers. When each of these signals appear, its important to take a short break like you would if you were lifting weights; you always take a short break between reps to allow your muscles to regain the ability to function. Overexertion by playing through these signals will lead to strains!

The tunnel syndromes and nerve issues are generally the result of prolonged bad posture; when your hands are at rest you will typically find your wrists up until your elbows are straight and relaxed - this is what you want when you play guitar, a nice straight wrist that is strain free and comfortable. If you sit in a chair with armrests when you play, be aware of resting your elbows on the armrests while you play, that is guaranteed to give you a stunned nerve. Localised numbness, relentless pins and needles, and constant muscle fatigue are the signs of these problems.

Good Luck,
P

 

[stubhead]

Also, I've decided to switch back to standard tuning on this guitar, and either build a short scale, or a mandola/tenor guitar instrument tuned in 5ths.  I think for string tension, a fanned fret short scale (maybe 25.5" on C to 24" on the high G) would be best for NST, but the stretch there might still be a pain.  Plus, that's custom build territory, which is beyond my skills to do myself, and beyond my budget.  It's a bit of a shame, because the tuning has a lot of really neat applications.

http://jazzmando.com/
http://www.mandolincafe.com/
http://www.emando.com/

jazzmando is more like learning music stuff, mandolin cafe is acoustick-y, but emando.com was like the cat's ass for me, there's a listing of builders, players etc. I have long had my eye on the Mooncaster kits:
http://www.moongazermusic.com/index.html

These probably would benefit from some upgraded parts, he leaves it to your discretion. There's a nasty little sheet-metal bridge that a lot of guys use, you'd be better cutting off up a Strat plate at that. He supposedly does very nice work, and his kit prices are fair. I ended up buying a finished 4-string electric mandolin from J.L. Smith, it was one of those times where I had more money than time... it's a great instrument, I haven't really done it justice practicing enough.

Traditional mandolins have a 13 7/8” scale, the fives often go to 14.5” scale, and the “Mandolas” go around 16” scale BUT: I just saw, at Mooncaster, an 18” scale five string “baritone” Yay! I have very often thought there's a big hole in the size department, and there ought to be thingies with a 18” or 19” scale. In fact I still have the technical drawings I made for a lovely little 19” scale five string stuck up on a door. (Should I mention the shocking idea that I've had parallel thoughts this way for a long time...)

http://www.moongazermusic.com/demob5bakit.html

If you go through the list of builders, you can see they're almost ALL private custom shop guys like Mr. Moongazer, and they'll do anything you want - for enough money, Yikes/Squared.

But the whole octave mandolin/mandola/baritone mando idea has been kicking around forever, acoustic mandolin orchestras had like 5 different sizes (it was a temporary Big Whoop that came and went, like Hawaiian music). It's a real shame that almost all of the currently available smaller “3/4 size” and beginner/girly/travel size SIX-string guitars are either way too cheap or way too expensive to do some converting to 5ths tunings. I somehow got acquainted with Mike Perlowin, one of the finest steel guitarists on the planet, and he's got a wonderfully-Neanderthallish baby-Squire 22" scale converted to 8-string octave mandolin, drill two more tuner holes in the headstock & bang together some kind of nut and find some kind of... brass pipe or valve rod or something to make the “bridge” (of course it's in tune, doofus, just play faster). I can't find my picture of that octave/tenor/mandola/Squier thing so here's his kitten.



Here's a picture of his other cat:

http://www.mikeperlowin.com/music.html

He's got  a 214-channel mixer, and he uses it to record classical symphonic music, all 88 or 102 tracks, with a pedal steel, electric mandolins, bass etc., record the piccolos at half-speed then juice them back up. Etc.

http://www.mikeperlowin.com/Track14.mp3
http://www.mikeperlowin.com/DebussyAfternoonofaFaun.mp3

Well, THAT surely answered the question (unless it died of starvation/carbon monoxide). So vewwy hupwee two bwee uf swervwiss! :hello2: :headbang: :hello2:

 

[swarfrat]

I need to pay attention to technique like these guys are saying, but I've also cut down the size of my voicings, playing a lot more 2 and three note voicings. It has a dramatic impact on handcrampedness, because you're just not asking your hand to do that much.

 

[stubhead]

Aw shoot, actually it didn't. After I already launched ol' Magnum Opie above, I went back to see what I was responding to... Mean Stubbie Time:

...the neck: it's quite a reach to get to the C or even the G for some things, and barre chords with standard tuning weren't always easy either.  Superwides are great for fingerstyle picking and big fingered folk like me, but the reach around & across with the barre is an extra strain.

No, no, and...no. Where is your THUMB, dude? OK, I already know. You're trying to keep it hooked up over the back of the neck. Why? You're just screwing yourself there, and you've erected a barrier to prevent you from getting good at a number of pretty easy (but tasty!) things. I don't believe it to be Freudian, dating back to the puppy mommy wouldn't get you or some perverse twist. Read Freud's own bio, you'll see why he though everyone else was pervy, too. It's just a matter of not knowing a few things - guitars are not really good for your arms, hands and spines. There's one thing I always do to/on/at new guitar students really early on – it's the first time we both get guitars out. I make a new guitar student sit in a chair. With their guitar, armed and ready. A right-foot stool or support is fine, bu they're basically holding the guitar with their right elbow holding the body against the ribs. And – you should be able to play without using your left thumb at all! Everybody's hand is strong enough to hold it in a claw for a while, everybody's left shoulder is strong enough to generate the 5 ounces (or so) pull it takes to hold a string against a fret. The fingerboard is really the only part of the neck that ought to be subject to scrutiny.

The thumb does hold the crucial role of bracing against the side during string bends, and it's surely a help guide and reference for finger placement – but the thumb should be in the middle of the back, with the tip pointed right at the headstock. Here's fun: push your left hand fingertips and thumb tip all together and point it at your face. Try and spread your fingers without moving your thumb. Didn't get too far? So start spreading your fingers again, but this time move your thumb away the the middle too. Whoa... they spread out much better! Now curl your thumb back in, as though it's curled up over the tup of the neck. Noe spread your fingers without moving your thumb. Uh-oh. So now, point your thumb way toward the leftedness as you can get to. Whoa. Your fingers can spread again!

Somewhere in here is also the notion it would be a very, very good (& relaxing!) game you play with yourself – just how and why CAN'T I use the gigantically-strong shoulder muscles, much slower tiring, hence tending towards more happy-making... what could be done to use the shoulder muscle to do a LOT of the hard work and the finger muscles serve more to direct the powerful but sloppy shoulder? Have you even noticed how Keith Richards, in standard tuning, sometimes sort of lifts up his left shoulder and pushes his left elbow out, so his arm is coming in at the neck at a much different angle, almost pushing in from the peghead side of things? You can, actually, feel a different set of muscles kick in there. B.B King used to do the same thing. Hmmm.

Hey! Does the idea of an under-used, but powerful set of “tools” (muscles) being guided by a weaker but more refined type “tool” have any bearing or meaning anywhere else? In any and all categories; physical processes, mental processes, group processes; problem-solving... damn I love guitars.

XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOX

IME, when I start trying to pick up something new on guitar, I tense my lower neck (C3-C5) -- according to the various chiropractors I've had over the years. This pulls stuff out of line, & results eventually in shooting pains down my left arm, not unlike electric shocks from a bad ground.
Part of the problem for me is that, when I'm drilling something new, I sit on the sofa & slouch back. letting my hands practice while I watch TV -- training the muscle memory, but also doing unkind things to my neck & back. And since the back of my mind is worried about doing it wrong, I tense up, so that can't be helping any. Once I feel like it's sinking in, I spend more time strapped up & standing, & the pains don't show up.

Don't you like playing guitar enough to just play guitar? I find this kind of thing to be mystifying. There's nothing going to happen on your television that you don't already know, pretty much; the People Really In Charge have all sorts of algorithms worked up to show them exactly how much crap they can shovel in you before they have to get you a nugget; how much stress & worry is needed to stimulate you into realizing you need to buy the thing they're selling to Feel Good About Yourself again. And at some level, you are willfully entangling your music with the background jabber of Machiavellian dickweeds.

C3 – C5? Are you leaning way back with your head titled way forward? You need a few blocks of foam, big things you can push and invert and find out how to make a safe cocoon. Sharp shooting shocks are the nerve cell's way of telling you that they're about to give up and die if they keep getting pinched off from their blood supply. Actually it's the sheaths around them that need circulation, but the nerves are trying to save themselves, regardless. Remember when Dave Mustaine fell asleep on his arm for forty-five minutes and couldn't start playing again until four months later?  Ick. Could be never, next time. I don't know what your insurance looks like, but if you can swing it you may want to have a set of nerve conductivity tests to at least establish a baseline. Do you get these pains at times particularly with a strapped guitar? Look up "thoracic outlet syndrome" and "double-crush syndrome." And I really, really wish I didn't have to know so much about this stuff.

 

[swarfrat]

RE the TV thing - I get it, and I don't like TV. See his goal was to train his fingers to do this stuff without his brain, sort of like a cockroach's legs know how to run without his brain telling them - ok, left front, right middle, left back, right front.... His brain just yells "RAID!" to the legs and they know what to do. (Even if you don't pay attention to it, your brain still tells your feet what to do. Roaches actually have some computing power in little nerve bundles at their legs... but I digress)

The TV isn't just a distraction, it's actively turning off his brain, like it does to everyone. It augments the exercise.

 

[Cagey]

I used to do that years ago. Just play chromatic scales to a metronome purely for the muscle memory training - no thought involved. Watched cooking shows.

 

[Tony Raven]

Yah, the TV thing -- it's easy entertainment 99% of the time. Like, when I'm at work, assembling pneumatic components (a.k.a. building brass), I sometimes plot out a piece I'm writing, or rehearse a song to keep my voice loose -- the job doesn't use a whole lot of the brain. And 99% of TV programming is not intellectually stimulating, much less chalenging -- when I don't hold a guitar, I'm usually cruising Internet or reading when the TV's on, & I miss very little. (I'm a baseball fan. There is a lot of fluff in a televised game.)

The neck problem began in college. My first two years, I delivered mail all across campus, twice a day. The bag was often in the 40-pound range, slung over one shoulder. As a result, my neck/back is pulled a little off to the side. And I've always been scoliotic, so that ain't helping.

No, no, and...no. Where is your THUMB, dude? OK, I already know. You're trying to keep it hooked up over the back of the neck. Why? You're just screwing yourself there, and you've erected a barrier to prevent you from getting good at a number of pretty easy (but tasty!) things.

Seconding the Mean Stubbie! As a much younger man, I had a chance to play a proper lute for a few hours. 13 gut strings, 7 courses, gut tied frets, neck more than 3" wide. Loved it, & it permanently broke me from "clench" style playing. Though I generally try to keep my thumb centered, especially as my hands are on the small side, it was a LOT more mobile after that.

A few years back, I started working on more complicated jazzy fills around fret 12. I paid a little attention to what I was doing with my thumb, & surprised myself. For a couple notes it'd be pointing back to the head, then up for a bit, sometimes back toward the body... but sometimes riding along the far side of the neck, or even not touching at all. Even though, higher up the neck, more force is required to depress a string, using arm pressure (rather than grip strength) is a LOT less likely to sharp the neck. And I found I get plenty of bend & vibrato control with the edge of my thumbtip resting at the frets. None of this is an "all the time" thing, & I still do plenty of chunk-chunk chording for sporadic gigs, but it seems to have reduced joint stress a little when I woodshed.

 

[Tony Raven]

I've decided to switch back to standard tuning on this guitar, and either build a short scale, or a mandola/tenor guitar instrument tuned in 5ths.  I think for string tension, a fanned fret short scale (maybe 25.5" on C to 24" on the high G) would be best for NST, but the stretch there might still be a pain.

Consider a Gibson M-6:
http://reverb.com/item/25617-gibson-a-style-m6-mandolin-black
The short-lived model (2002?) never sold well, in part because it is most definitely NOT a mandolin -- it's an octave guitar, 14.125" scale (per Elderly Instruments), made in Nashville. The MSRP has gotten misplaced but I think something like $5,000+. (Maybe it'll come back someday as an Epiphone...)

Some five years back, I chatted a bit with an eBay seller who'd paid to have an M-6 converted into a five-string mando with fanned frets & pickup. He wound up letting it go for a little more than $1,700. It's got quite a history for its short life, though:
http://jazzmando.com/gibson_5string_jazz_mandolin_.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-h7oQKSQZI