Neck bow or Shim?

[WindsurfMaui]

I have a hardtail American Standard Strat with the saddles cranked all the way up. because of this when I measure the string to fret depth at the 9th fret with a Capo on the 1st fret and my finger holding down the string at the 15th fret it measures about .08 on the high E string. But when playing the guitar around the 15th fret the strings feel too high. When I eyeball the strings I can see a bow in the neck. If I tighten the truss rod to take some of the bow out then the strings will be too close to the fretboard. So is it better to leave it this way or straighten the neck and but a small shim in the neck pocket instead?

In general how do you measure when there is too much bow and a neck should be shimmed instead? The neck, which is the original Strat neck, sits deep in the pocket and there is very little space between the fretboard overhang and the pickguard. I have ordered a Warmoth neck which I may use on this guitar if I can't fix this issue with some adjustments. Thanks.

 

[Cagey]

"Bow" is when the neck is bent backwards (high in the middle). When it's bent forward, as yours is, it's called "relief". It's called that because you put tension on the truss rod to bend it back, and relieve tension to let it bend forward. Or, because you heave a sigh of relief when you find it's not bowed  :laughing7:

Anyway, if you're measuring .08" relief, you've either left out a 0 or you've got one helluva lotta relief in that neck. It's more likely .008", although that would be harder to see by eye.

If it really is .08", then tightening the truss rod is in order. Give it a quarter turn, and see where you end up.

If it's actually .008", then you need a little more relief, and a shim in the neck pocket to tilt the whole neck back. I would suggest one of these Maple shims from StewMac...

You want to use one of those to prevent this sort of thing from happening...

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Hello Cagey:

Yes thanks for the corrections. It is relief and not bowed that my neck is currently. And yes it is .008. I am using feeler gauges to measure. To orient me, When you say tilt the neck back that means put the tall end of the shim at the far end of the pocket and not the end deepest in the body, right?

I've seen those Stew Mac shims they are quite expensive. I thought I would try and make one from some veneer and see if that works. The question is, is there an easier way to know how large the tallest edge of the shim should be? Or is it just a matter of trying different heights until I find the right height?

I own a couple of Strats and one Warmoth build Tele that a friend assembled for me a long time ago. I have come to the conclusion that the generic Fender strat is just not what feels good and that a custom assembly of parts like Warmoth supplies comes much closer to what feels and plays better. So I am starting to get familiar with the assembly and adjustment process of building a guitar so I can eventually sell the Strats and put the money into home builds that feel and play better. So thanks for the help and education.

 

[Cagey]

No, I mean you want the headstock to move back, which means the thick end of the shim needs to go in the deep end (closer to the bridge) of the pocket.

I know the StewMac shims are kinda pricey for what they are. Unfortunately, while I've used them before, I haven't yet experimented to find how much each shim moves the neck. They're still fairly new on the market, but I'm guessing that at some point somebody is gonna come up with a chart. I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for StewMac to do it, as I'm sure they sell substantially more shims by leaving everybody guessing.

In the meantime, you could try making one, but what stopped me was the thought that I could end up goofing around for 50 cents an hour making scrap by the time I found a size that worked, so I just bought one of the sets. That way I could use the one or a combination that worked and be done with it.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

No, I mean you want the headstock to move back, which means the thick end of the shim needs to go in the deep end (closer to the bridge) of the pocket.

I know the StewMac shims are kinda pricey for what they are. Unfortunately, while I've used them before, I haven't yet experimented to find how much each shim moves the neck. They're still fairly new on the market, but I'm guessing that at some point somebody is gonna come up with a chart. I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for StewMac to do it, as I'm sure they sell substantially more shims by leaving everybody guessing.

In the meantime, you could try making one, but what stopped me was the thought that I could end up goofing around for 50 cents an hour making scrap by the time I found a size that worked, so I just bought one of the sets. That way I could use the one or a combination that worked and be done with it.

Yes the Stew Mac shims are very expensive. I just ordered a pack of sample maple veneer from Veneer supply for $3.99 and will try to cut some shims from that and do my own sanding.

 

[BigSteve22]

.......you could try making one, but what stopped me was the thought that I could end up goofing around for 50 cents an hour making scrap by the time I found a size that worked, so I just bought one of the sets. That way I could use the one or a combination that worked and be done with it.

What convinced me, was the price of the rest of the build. My JM was about $2K in materials, was I really going to scrimp on $20 to get the neck angle exactly where I needed it?  :icon_scratch:

 

[WindsurfMaui]

So I'm going to try to make my own shims out of veneer maple. Now the question is once sanded do the shims need to be sealed? If so what is the best to use? I assume an unsealed shim can gather moisture and swell changing the angle of the shim.

This brings up another question . In all the videos I have seen the neck pocket is unfinished. Why is that? shouldn't all of the wood have some type of finish so it won't gather moisture etc? shouldn't it have some type of finish even if it is just a simple oil to close the pores?

 

[bagman67]

You need not finish the shim.  The reason the neck pocket can be unfinished is that there's a big fat chunk of wood between the unfinished pocket and any potential invasive moisture.  But as you have no doubt seen if you've ever shopped for bodies online, many makers don't mask the pocket.  More of a personal preference/manufacturing efficiency choice than anything else.

Unless you sweat like Nathan Thurm.  Then all bets are off.

 

[Logrinn]

This brings up another question . In all the videos I have seen the neck pocket is unfinished. Why is that? shouldn't all of the wood have some type of finish so it won't gather moisture etc? shouldn't it have some type of finish even if it is just a simple oil to close the pores?

I'll leave you with this question: could it be that unfinished wood is better for the sound? Look at all the acoustic guitars. No finish or oil inside of them - and they depend on the acoustic quality of the wood ... :icon_jokercolor:

 

[WindsurfMaui]

I read somewhere when the saddles are too high the angle makes the strings tighter and harder to play. Like there were heavier strings on the guitar. Is this true?

I have a Strat hardtail that has this problem. I thought shimming the neck would solve the problem but if the saddle angle is too high shimming the neck won't solve the saddle angle problem. Could I shim the bridge instead?  Can I put a shim under the bridge so the saddles will be slightly higher and then I can lower them and solve both problems?

 

[mayfly]

I read somewhere when the saddles are too high the angle makes the strings tighter and harder to play. Like there were heavier strings on the guitar. Is this true?

This is absolutely NOT true.  The only thing that affects the tension of a guitar string tuned to the correct pitch is the gauge of the string. 

I have a Strat hardtail that has this problem. I thought shimming the neck would solve the problem but if the saddle angle is too high shimming the neck won't solve the saddle angle problem. Could I shim the bridge instead?  Can I put a shim under the bridge so the saddles will be slightly higher and then I can lower them and solve both problems?

You could certainly do that and it would work.  String tension would feel the same afterwards though.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

I took apart the hardtail Strat with a plan to shim the bridge plate. Cut a couple of shims from maple veneer (very difficult b/c it was so thin that trying to drill through it for the string holes kept breaking the shim) but did get a couple of shims cut properly and when I lifted the bridge plate I see that the ground cable isn't soldered to the bridge but rather hooked onto the hole in the body under the bridge plate and is being held in contact to the bridge by the pressure of the bridge when it is in place. This presented a problem because if I raise the bridge plate off the top of the guitar it will no no longer be in contact with the ground. So I tried to solder the cable to the bridge plate and it seemed to take but then once I put the slightest pressure on the cable it pulled the solder off the bridge plate. I tried building up some solder on the bridge plate first then adding the wire but again it wouldn't hold. So I abandoned the bridge plate shim for now.

I then turned to the neck. My strat came with Micro tilt system but I didn't want to use it. I made two shims one full length and the other 3/4 length and taped them together then placed them toward the body bolted on the neck and added 2 strings and saw that it made the problem worse the strings with the saddles cranked high were lying on the frets. Took the neck apart and reversed the shim so the thicker end was toward the neck bolted it together and it looks good. I have to do the final adjustment and intonation tonight but it looks like it helps to lower the saddles a little. (Although after this post I suspect someone will tell me what I did wrong with the bridge plate solder and I will try the bridge plate shims again. I looked at my tremolo Strat and I see that it is being held up off the body by the two trem posts, so if I raise the hardtail bridge by a similar amount I should be able to lower the saddles, my original goal.)

I have to say although it took many hours and was frustrating at places I did enjoy the experience. I have in the past soldered up a couple of pick guards with pickups and pots as alternative drop ins for my strat but I don't usually like stripping down the whole guitar. Making the neck shims was much easier b/c I only had to cut the 4 bolt holds and I used a 1/4" one hole paper punch which worked fine.

 

[Sovereign_13]

Soldering to big chunks of metal like bridges is tricky, because the big chunks of metal shed heat faster than a solder joint normally would.  This causes an undesireable metallurgical effect in the solder alloy, the quick version of which is that the solder ends up brittle, less conductive, and doesn't flow or stick where it should. 

Soldering to something like that requires power, enough to pump heat into the joint faster than it can dissipate.  The typical hobby-level irons (25-40W) don't have enough power for that kind of thing, so it's less likely that you did it wrong and more likely you didn't have the required tool for that job.  That's why a lot of people (and companies) will just hook the ground wire around a mounting screw and sandwich it between the bridge and the body, like yours was.  Simpler and effective.  You might try sandwiching the wire between the bridge and the shim and see if that works better than soldering.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

I tried to wrap the ground wire around one of the bridge screws but the wire with the plastic cover was thicker than the shim. It didn't occur to me at the time to strip the wire and place it on top of the shim. I will try that the next time I am ready to take the guitar apart. Thanks

 

[AirCap]

You are just a clueless hack, aren't ya? Gotta start somewhere, I guess.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

It's true I have never been good working with my hands. Plus I am clumsy and my brain doesn't seem to recognize obvious solutions. I don't know why.  :dontknow:

 

[bagman67]

AirCap, name-calling is really uncalled for.  We all started somewhere. 


WindsurfMaui, there are a few resources it'd be worthwhile for you to explore.


1 - Try Dan Erlewine's book, "How to Make Your Electric Guitar Play Great", available on Amazon and elsewhere.  He also has a book on finishing guitars about which I have no opinion, not having read it.


2 -  Go to Youtube and view this series:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqLfllURlo8
Jason can be really long-winded but he gives TONS of detail, and you can skip episodes that don't concern you.


3 - There's lots of other resources on Youtube - just search on "Warmoth build" and you will find many, many videos depicting folks' experience building things.


And keep coming back, we're happy to help.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Thanks Bagman67 for all the leads.  I just took Dan's book out of the library. And will definitely  watch the Youtube videos. I have been watching videos on staining and finishing wood but I think I need a refresher on wiring. And for some reason I should have thought about placing the ground wire on the bridge shim but my brain wasn't working. probably b/c I had been at the whole adjustment stuff for too many hours without a break. Just total brain fade.  ???

I do appreciate this forum and am trying to read through many old posts. Having trouble with the search engine because it finds common words in almost every thread so hard to zero in on just the few threads that would be helpful. But the process is fun.

If these experiments work out I may sell the couple of Fender Strats I own and stick to my own home assembly guitars. I certainly like the Warmoth boatneck much better than any other neck I have seen and I would  prefer a custom body  rather than the mass assembly of Fender.

 

[bagman67]

I get some mileage out of fixed phrases in quotes, like "ground wire" or "water-based finish".

 

[AirCap]

AirCap, name-calling is really uncalled for.  We all started somewhere.

Name calling is stuff like idiot or moron.
Clueless hack is merely pointing out the obvious.
And most of us were clueless hacks at some time or another.
We didn't have the benefit of the internet back then.