Mahaogany Strats; How warm is TOO warm?

[uOpt]

Well, of course pickups are a major factor.

However, I am one of the few who deliberately tested the same guitar, same pickups, same neck, same strings, same rig with a hardtail bridge and a tremolo. The difference is jaw-dropping.

 

[AToE]

I play mahogany strat (G&L F-100II) with a hardtail and it's the clearest brightest guitar I've ever played

Looked up the G&L F-100II...

You've got a mahogany body with a maple/maple neck with coil splitters as well.

Sounds like a somewhat mid-scooped tone.  Mahogany does low mids and maple is bright.

I actually have one with an ebony board, and I’ve disconnected the coil split from the bridge pickup (never use it; only ever use a single coil in neck position). It is definitely a bit treble happy, but the bottom is tight and solid, you don’t notice it as anything more than some "body" to the tone, even when cranking the bass on an amp. I definitely think that the hard rock maple and ebony neck dominates the guitar’s tone over the mahogany body, which is what one would expect.

It also has a phase switch which throws the two pickups out of phase with each other, which gives loads of mids, and it has both a high roll-off tone knob and a low roll-off tone knob (all passive), which when both are rolled all the way off and combined with the out of phase switch leaves me with a super cool “stuck phaser, or stuck wah” kinda tone. Very versatile guitar.

EDIT TO ADD:

Well, of course pickups are a major factor.

However, I am one of the few who deliberately tested the same guitar, same pickups, same neck, same strings, same rig with a hardtail bridge and a tremolo. The difference is jaw-dropping.

I agree, when I converted my F-100 from a floating (only slightly floating, this is a reg trem not a floyd) to a hardtail the difference was pretty surprising. I didn't do a deliberate test, but I also wasn't expecting any change (didn't know much about tone back then, just wanted the pesky trem gone) so I doubt it was psycosomatic.

 

[uOpt]

Well, of course pickups are a major factor.

However, I am one of the few who deliberately tested the same guitar, same pickups, same neck, same strings, same rig with a hardtail bridge and a tremolo. The difference is jaw-dropping.

I agree, when I converted my F-100 from a floating (only slightly floating, this is a reg trem not a floyd) to a hardtail the difference was pretty surprising. I didn't do a deliberate test, but I also wasn't expecting any change (didn't know much about tone back then, just wanted the pesky trem gone) so I doubt it was psycosomatic.

How did you convert it to a hardtail?

 

[rockskate4x]

maybe he used one o these http://store.hipshotproducts.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=148

 

[AToE]

Well, of course pickups are a major factor.

However, I am one of the few who deliberately tested the same guitar, same pickups, same neck, same strings, same rig with a hardtail bridge and a tremolo. The difference is jaw-dropping.

I agree, when I converted my F-100 from a floating (only slightly floating, this is a reg trem not a floyd) to a hardtail the difference was pretty surprising. I didn't do a deliberate test, but I also wasn't expecting any change (didn't know much about tone back then, just wanted the pesky trem gone) so I doubt it was psycosomatic.

How did you convert it to a hardtail?

I dropped the bridge base plate directly down onto the body, it was originally suspended on 2 felt pads around the screws, and locked it down tight with the screws (which go into threaded inserts in the wood under the bridge, not into the wood itself - the G&L trem is not much like a standard strat trem). I keep the springs tight just for safety's sake and to ensure good coupling, but they aren't really needed, I've tried stringing it up without the springs and it stays against the body. Obviously this isn't exactly the same as a standard strat hardtail (which have a couple more screws and no routed out wood under the bridge), but it did have an impressive impact on the tone, and I doubt very much that the extra 2 screws would add much tone. :laughing7:

Oh, also - I keep the springs heavily dampened, so they make no audible contribution to the sound.

 

[kboman]

To both AToE and uOpt:
Acknowledging that tone is - at least to a significant degree - subjective, how would you describe the difference in sound after going hardtail?

 

[Superlizard]

1) Tone is subjective as far as what you like - absolutely.

2) But put this piece of wood on that piece of wood, and the tone that comes out of it ain't subjective in the least.

3) Describing a tone... assuming everyone's ears are working, the descriptors, while certainly not being exactly the same 'tween people, should be along similar lines - because of point 2).

 

[uOpt]

Well, of course pickups are a major factor.

However, I am one of the few who deliberately tested the same guitar, same pickups, same neck, same strings, same rig with a hardtail bridge and a tremolo. The difference is jaw-dropping.

I agree, when I converted my F-100 from a floating (only slightly floating, this is a reg trem not a floyd) to a hardtail the difference was pretty surprising. I didn't do a deliberate test, but I also wasn't expecting any change (didn't know much about tone back then, just wanted the pesky trem gone) so I doubt it was psycosomatic.

How did you convert it to a hardtail?

I dropped the bridge base plate directly down onto the body, it was originally suspended on 2 felt pads around the screws, and locked it down tight with the screws (which go into threaded inserts in the wood under the bridge, not into the wood itself - the G&L trem is not much like a standard strat trem). I keep the springs tight just for safety's sake and to ensure good coupling, but they aren't really needed, I've tried stringing it up without the springs and it stays against the body. Obviously this isn't exactly the same as a standard strat hardtail (which have a couple more screws and no routed out wood under the bridge), but it did have an impressive impact on the tone, and I doubt very much that the extra 2 screws would add much tone. :laughing7:

Oh, also - I keep the springs heavily dampened, so they make no audible contribution to the sound.

I'm afraid that doesn't count. The main sound changer here is the large metal sustain block.

While there is a noticeable different between a floating tremolo, a flat tremolo and a hard blocked tremolo, the difference when the bridge just sits on wood is much larger.

In fact, the problem I am describing, that a hardtail Strat can easily become too boomy, only appears with actual hardtail bridges.

I honestly don't know whether the wood replacement blocks that you screw a hardtail on are similar to having the wood in the first place.

The only way to test this is to have a hardtail bridge with a hardtail route (aka holes only) and then route the actual guitar for a tremolo.

 

[uOpt]

To both AToE and uOpt:
Acknowledging that tone is - at least to a significant degree - subjective, how would you describe the difference in sound after going hardtail?

As mentioned, you cannot go hardtail. You can only go from hardtail to tremolo, by routing the body.

To my ears, a regular Strat made from light alder or ash with vintage style Strat pickups and a hardtail bridge (I used the Schaller flatmount) is just just too bassy (I said boomy, it about fits). The tremolo, in lack of better words, streamlines the sound into the sustainy, midrangey sound that we like from Strats. The thing begins to sing. With a hardtail it's not that singing quality, it's more of a woody, boinky quality. I run out of adjectives here.

If you use humbuckers instead of Strat single it gets even worse.

A telecaster is an entirely different matter due to the bridge and pickup design and although I have not tested this 1:1 by cutting the horns off a Strat body I am sure that the body shape with large horns and the comfort contours changes things, a lot. Just compare a SG to an Explorer. Both are mahogany/mahogany/rosewood with TOMs and stop tailpiece but they have nothing in common.  Same for a Hamer Sunburst against a Les Paul. Both are mahogany+maple/mahogany/rosewood but there's no mistaking who's who from the sound. Body shape matters.  You can't dangle a huge chunk of wood off the neck pocket without effect.

To get back to the original topic, I think that woods such as mahogany, poplar and hard, heavy Ash make hardtail Strats much more bearable than light Ash or Alder do.

I don't think that a mahogany Strat with Tom will be overly warm. Bassy, yes, warm, no. The thing will have bite, the question is whether it's too wobbly.

 

[AToE]

Well, of course pickups are a major factor.

However, I am one of the few who deliberately tested the same guitar, same pickups, same neck, same strings, same rig with a hardtail bridge and a tremolo. The difference is jaw-dropping.

I agree, when I converted my F-100 from a floating (only slightly floating, this is a reg trem not a floyd) to a hardtail the difference was pretty surprising. I didn't do a deliberate test, but I also wasn't expecting any change (didn't know much about tone back then, just wanted the pesky trem gone) so I doubt it was psycosomatic.

How did you convert it to a hardtail?

I dropped the bridge base plate directly down onto the body, it was originally suspended on 2 felt pads around the screws, and locked it down tight with the screws (which go into threaded inserts in the wood under the bridge, not into the wood itself - the G&L trem is not much like a standard strat trem). I keep the springs tight just for safety's sake and to ensure good coupling, but they aren't really needed, I've tried stringing it up without the springs and it stays against the body. Obviously this isn't exactly the same as a standard strat hardtail (which have a couple more screws and no routed out wood under the bridge), but it did have an impressive impact on the tone, and I doubt very much that the extra 2 screws would add much tone. :laughing7:

Oh, also - I keep the springs heavily dampened, so they make no audible contribution to the sound.

I'm afraid that doesn't count. The main sound changer here is the large metal sustain block.

While there is a noticeable different between a floating tremolo, a flat tremolo and a hard blocked tremolo, the difference when the bridge just sits on wood is much larger.

In fact, the problem I am describing, that a hardtail Strat can easily become too boomy, only appears with actual hardtail bridges.

I honestly don't know whether the wood replacement blocks that you screw a hardtail on are similar to having the wood in the first place.

The only way to test this is to have a hardtail bridge with a hardtail route (aka holes only) and then route the actual guitar for a tremolo.

I was 99% sure you were going to say that, and yes, you are of course correct. I haven't done the test you are describing, so you should have a better idea of how the change effected the guitar - but for the sake of argument, I have played many hard tail (from factory) and trem US Strats with the same specs side by side through the same rig, for the express purpose of teaching myself the differences between the two. Now, obviously there is going to be considerable differences from strat to strat based on the exact pieces of wood used, but I honestly didn't find the difference between the hardtail and trem guitars to be noticably more extreme than when I changed my guitar from floating to locked down. That said, I'm going to have to take your word that the difference is even larger for an actual hard tail (and what you say totally makes sense from a physics point of view) - but I haven't yet found a strat, hardtail or otherwise that was what I would (personally, I'm not disputing that you find hardtails boomy) consider boomy. Bassy yes, but tight and focussed, nowhere even close to what I consider boomy, which is shorter scale guitars like Gibsons.

 

[rockskate4x]

Body MASS matters. You can make plenty of shapes that have the same amount of wood, and chances are their tones would be very similar.

 

[AToE]

To both AToE and uOpt:
Acknowledging that tone is - at least to a significant degree - subjective, how would you describe the difference in sound after going hardtail?

As mentioned, you cannot go hardtail. You can only go from hardtail to tremolo, by routing the body.

To my ears, a regular Strat made from light alder or ash with vintage style Strat pickups and a hardtail bridge (I used the Schaller flatmount) is just just too bassy (I said boomy, it about fits). The tremolo, in lack of better words, streamlines the sound into the sustainy, midrangey sound that we like from Strats. The thing begins to sing. With a hardtail it's not that singing quality, it's more of a woody, boinky quality. I run out of adjectives here.

If you use humbuckers instead of Strat single it gets even worse.

A telecaster is an entirely different matter due to the bridge and pickup design and although I have not tested this 1:1 by cutting the horns off a Strat body I am sure that the body shape with large horns and the comfort contours changes things, a lot. Just compare a SG to an Explorer. Both are mahogany/mahogany/rosewood with TOMs and stop tailpiece but they have nothing in common.  Same for a Hamer Sunburst against a Les Paul. Both are mahogany+maple/mahogany/rosewood but there's no mistaking who's who from the sound. Body shape matters.  You can't dangle a huge chunk of wood off the neck pocket without effect.

To get back to the original topic, I think that woods such as mahogany, poplar and hard, heavy Ash make hardtail Strats much more bearable than light Ash or Alder do.

I don't think that a mahogany Strat with Tom will be overly warm. Bassy, yes, warm, no. The thing will have bite, the question is whether it's too wobbly.

I'll agree about the trem strats sounding more "stratty" than the hardtails for sure, and that if I was playing a s/s/s strat I'd probably pick the trem for tone, since I'd be aiming vintage anyways. And of course, humbuckers pretty much kill off the strat tone (though I personally prefer the buckers, I like mids mids mids)

As for the switch to "locked down trem," I found 3 major differences:
1 more attack - and by attack I don't mean treble, I mean attack. This might be the "woody, boinky quality" that uOpt is hating about the hardtails, though I can't say for sure, as obviously our sonic vocabulary isn't lining up here!
2 more bass - which, for my treble-caster works out juuust fine.
3 tighter bass - even though there was definitely an increase in low frequencies, I think (getting a little subjective here) that the lows being emphasized became more musical and less flubby than what had been there when it was a floating trem. I can now crank the bass on an amp (though I never do, I tend to leave all controls at 0) and it stays focussed and clear, when it was floating this was impossible, it was mush.

As for the horn making that much of a difference - I don't see the point in arguing this since we haven't done the experiment - but I'd believe in a difference between a single and double cut the way a Les Paul is constructed, where the neck is significantly "more attached" to the body in the single cut version than the double, and I would attribute the difference in tone to probably the change in how the free neck is to resonate , and how much vibration is being transfered out into the body - certainly not to the loss of mass from the cut away. technically, the horn can resonate a bit more the a solid chunk of a single cut, but I doubt this has any impact on the tone from a human hearing point of veiw.

 

[AToE]

Body MASS matters. You can make plenty of shapes that have the same amount of wood, and chances are their tones would be very similar.

I agree, this is much more likely to be causing the difference in tone from an SG to an Explorer. That said - I also think (as in my last post) that the difference in how the neck connects to the body should make a decent difference, though I wouldn't hazard the slightest guess as to what that difference would end up sounding like.

 

[Nando Vallart]

and the comfort contours changes things, a lot.

So if you dent your guitar you'll burn it because it won't sound as good as before? :laughing7:

Just compare a SG to an Explorer. Both are mahogany/mahogany/rosewood with TOMs and stop tailpiece but they have nothing in common. 

Take a look of the thickness and how much bigger is the Explorer, you can't compare the differente on size between a SG and a Explorer to a Tele from a Strat, seriously...

 

[Rick]

Someone, awhile did a post on how much scale length affects your tone.  The longer strat scale length will brighten your tone, more so than your wood choice.  As will the PUPS you choose.  I had an alder hard tail body strat with mahogny neck and rosewood fret board that was pretty sweet. 

So your question seems to be:
Will a mahogany body make my guitar too warm sounding?
The answer is no, it won't.

 

[uOpt]

and the comfort contours changes things, a lot.

So if you dent your guitar you'll burn it because it won't sound as good as before? :laughing7:

Just compare a SG to an Explorer. Both are mahogany/mahogany/rosewood with TOMs and stop tailpiece but they have nothing in common. 

Take a look of the thickness and how much bigger is the Explorer, you can't compare the differente on size between a SG and a Explorer to a Tele from a Strat, seriously...

Then compare a LP special and an Explorer. There's very comparable body mass there and they sound nothing alike.

It matters how the weight is distributed around neck and bridge and it matter how strong the body holds on top the neck, and how far into the neck.

I wonder whether somebody has some screwed up Strat or Tele body that we can cut up for experiments. I asked on re-ranch but didn't get anything yet. Don't want to spend major $$$ on something I will mount 7 bridges on.

Maybe I should just make a pine body from a 2x12"?

 

[tfarny]

This thread is almost complete gibberish. I say that as someone who's put together about 12 guitars in the last couple of years and done a number of pickup swaps and even, yes, a trem to hardtail conversion. Bridge type matters, and overall weight will affect things to some extent, but the guitar mostly sounds like its pickups. The people who go on at length about all this other stuff are mostly trying to sell you something or are trying to make electric guitar construction some kind of fine wine tasting activity. Gimme a break. Get some decent pickups and a good quality bridge and a top quality setup and you'll sound great (if you can play).

My bolt on LP sounds exactly like a great Les Paul - you cannot hear a consistent difference by neck / body attachment, for one thing. Don't even get me started about 'resonating strat horns' - geesh.

You guys are welcome to blab on as long as you like, but I just hope that first timers aren't taking any of this at all seriously. It ain't rocket science, people, and these are NOT acoustic instruments we're talking about.

Oh - pine guitars: http://www.pinecaster.com/   
Toiletcaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG4VvlznDI0
Tele from an IKEA butcher block: http://www.zacharyguitars.com/070209pics.htm  This guy charges big bucks for his stuff.

 

[jerryjg]

Couldn't disagree more. Waht kind of amps do you have. I have some of the finest amps and speakers in the world, and maybe you just dont have the tight gear to let the subleties and nuances of a egrat tonewood guitar shine through. Each is different . Its a fine art to balance the woods  & pickups and everything else, every little deatil I spend extar for like the best bridges and stuff. You wanna run out and throw togther a toilet caster and proclaim that it sounds as good as a carefully put toigether ash Start with all the best parts and vintage annointments, then be my guest,but Im calling BS>
.. Don't yopu read the websites about how wood effects tone?
You are entitled to your opinion of course, .
.
Pine is a bodywood I wouldnt wizz on btw.

 

[Mor Paul]

What are the "best" parts?

And he knows wood makes some difference, but he says pickups are even more important.

 

[uOpt]

I started out exactly with that "pickups and body wood matter" attitude, a variant of the "pickups and neck are all that matters" opinion.

But for years now I test every guitar with the same pickups. All that fit humbucker with a APH/Jazz set, the rest with APS-1s and many variants of bridges, bridge height, string tree placement, strings, pots, capacitors, I exchange necks or tuners while changing nothing else, I change bridges while changing nothing else and I curse for a day until I have my Telecaster bridge Antiquity 1 mounted in a humbucker guitar just because I @(*&(@(@ want to know.

Now I am very firm in the "everything changes everything" department.

The number of surprises you get from this journey is very high.