Magnet swaps

[stubhead]

Regarding the coil swapping/combinations, this makes perfect & wonderful sense to me:

"each coil has a different resonant peak so the combination is less "peaky" or "one notey" than a standard humbucker. The mis-matched coils also cancel less harmonics so the tone is more complex and possesses some qualities exclusive to single coil pickups."

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22538

This seems like a neat thing to be interested in, but I SURE wish I knew what anyone was actually talking about when they say:
Bright
Tight
Chimy
Scooped
Jangly
etc. etc. etc. There are FREQUENCIES that ought to correspond to these names, but as it is there's no telling what someone is saying... Is a "scoop" in between 1.2K and 2.5K? 1.6K and 3.2K? What percentage change is there..... etc. etc. etc. One man's chime is another man's jangle.... :sad1: I'd be more inclined to rip stuff up and spew magnets about if I thought the predictability of the results was - ummm - more predictable.

 

[tfarny]

Hey Gary, I'd be interested in a 59/c5 hybrid made out of your spares - want to patch together all those spare pieces and sell it to me? I've never been super pleased with the SD pearly gates in my LP, I feel like I need more kick while keeping the alnico character. I usually end up on the Jazz no matter what I'm playing. PM if you are interested.

 

[GoDrex]

I'd be more inclined to rip stuff up and spew magnets about if I thought the predictability of the results was - ummm - more predictable.

I don't really know what any of the descriptive words mean either. I just tried various combinations with pickups I owned, just for the fun of seeing what it would do. I did manage to find 2 really usable combinations for my LP. One was the C5  which works great in my LP - I didn't have to buy one since I already owned a Custom - just swapped the magnet out. I just decided to try the coil swap because it seemed like a cool idea and I like experiementing. It worked out great for me, YMMV.

From trying all of these things I did learn a lot of about the effects that various magnets have on existing pickup winds. I know, for example, that and A2 magnet doesn't work well for me in this guitar because it makes the low end too loose or flubby sounding to my taste. It does have a nice sound though that I imagine would work great in a brighter guitar, and/or one with a Floyd Rose type bridge. The A8 magnet is like pressing the loudness button on a stereo system. It also tightens up the flubby low end and adds a lot of clarity - meaning you really hear each note clearly in full chords. I think this is a great magnet to try if you play a lot of high gain stuff or metal where you need a tight sound on the low end of things for muted power chords. A5 seems like my favorite all around magnet - works best for me in my LP. It's not as tight as the A8, but also isn't as compressed, so the dynamics are better. Ceramic magnets seem to compress a lot like the A8, but in my Custom it sounded muddy or muffled on the low end and the highs seemed a bit muffled as well. I think it was result of the compression and the already dark nature of an all mahogany and chambered guitar, but I don't know. I just know that the difference when swamping the ceramic out for the A2, A5 and A8 was huge and each one had it's own character, parts of which I liked in some case and some I didn't like. The A5 worked the best for me in the end. The Custom with and A2 is the Custom Custom that Duncan sells, btw.

So in some ways the magnet thing is a little bit predictable.

 

[GoDrex]

Hey Gary, I'd be interested in a 59/c5 hybrid made out of your spares - want to patch together all those spare pieces and sell it to me? I've never been super pleased with the SD pearly gates in my LP, I feel like I need more kick while keeping the alnico character. I usually end up on the Jazz no matter what I'm playing. PM if you are interested.

The Pearly Gates uses an Alnico 2, which is weaker and gives a softer feel.  You might try a different magnet before buying something else. An A5 would make it more like a '59, though the wind is different so it would sound different. An A8 would probably turn it into a HIFI

I'm not sure I want to sell any pickups just yet. Part of it is I like having them in case I need them. I probably won't but then if I sell one I'll be wanting it later.  :laughing7:  The other thing is I'd hate for you to have some kind of trouble with it, since I am taking them apart and putting them back together. It's really not hard to do, but it is possible that I'm not doing a perfect job on them.

 

[blue313]

The PG has an A2 in it stock, the Jazz an A5.   Like Gary's saying, switching the A2 magnet for an A5 should easily give more kick,

I swapped out the current A8 in my JB (stock A5) for an A2 also recently.  It seems to have added low-mids and tamed some of the harsher highs that the stock JB had.   It's coming out a little muddy overall.  The pickup also seems less sensitive to pick attack now, but it does have overall less output.  I'll probably switch back to the A8 but I'm going to give it a fair shake for a few weeks and tweak my settings first.


BTW the "Duncan Custom"(SH-5)(Ceramic), "Custom Custom"(SH-11)(Alnico 2) and "Custom 5"(SH-14)(Alnico 5) are the exact same identical pickup with different magnets.  It's probably the best benchmark for comparing the differences in magnets alone due to availability.  A lot of the guys on the SD forums like the Custom 8, which unfortunately isn't available as a production model yet.

 

[blue313]

Regarding the coil swapping/combinations, this makes perfect & wonderful sense to me:

"each coil has a different resonant peak so the combination is less "peaky" or "one notey" than a standard humbucker. The mis-matched coils also cancel less harmonics so the tone is more complex and possesses some qualities exclusive to single coil pickups."

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22538

This seems like a neat thing to be interested in, but I SURE wish I knew what anyone was actually talking about when they say:
Bright
Tight
Chimy
Scooped
Jangly
etc. etc. etc. There are FREQUENCIES that ought to correspond to these names, but as it is there's no telling what someone is saying... Is a "scoop" in between 1.2K and 2.5K? 1.6K and 3.2K? What percentage change is there..... etc. etc. etc. One man's chime is another man's jangle.... :sad1: I'd be more inclined to rip stuff up and spew magnets about if I thought the predictability of the results was - ummm - more predictable.

Is there a spectrum analyzer that might help to better quantify this?  I'm not looking to spend a ton of cash.

 

[GoDrex]

The PG has an A2 in it stock, the Jazz an A5.   Like Gary's saying, switching the A2 magnet for an A5 should easily give more kick,

I swapped out the current A8 in my JB (stock A5) for an A2 also recently.  It seems to have added low-mids and tamed some of the harsher highs that the stock JB had.   It's coming out a little muddy overall.  The pickup also seems less sensitive to pick attack now, but it does have overall less output.  I'll probably switch back to the A8 but I'm going to give it a fair shake for a few weeks and tweak my settings first.


BTW the "Duncan Custom"(SH-5)(Ceramic), "Custom Custom"(SH-11)(Alnico 2) and "Custom 5"(SH-14)(Alnico 5) are the exact same identical pickup with different magnets.  It's probably the best benchmark for comparing the differences in magnets alone due to availability.  A lot of the guys on the SD forums like the Custom 8, which unfortunately isn't available as a production model yet.

Yeah some people really love the A8, but I guess I'm kind of old school (just old hehehe) and the A8 makes it sound too compressed to me. It's like how new CD's are mastered now. I think they sound really good - I tried the C8 and JB8 and both were big improvements in tone for me with my stuff - but i think they would be fatiguing to the ear over an extended period. I also felt like no matter how hard I hit the strings I got a very similar volume. The output from both was LOUD - so if you have a tube amp you could really blast the preamp tubes. From what I could tell they had higher output than ceramic (the only comparison available was with the custom and custom8). With the C8 I felt like I couldn't get the PAF-like sound that the C5 has - but it was better for metal riffs by far. You could chug on any note and it was tight and powerful. The C5 is good at this but not as good.. Oh and I forgot to mention that with an A8 I found that I had to really back the pickup off from the strings because the magnet is so strong.

I never bothered trying the Custom Custom (Custom with A2 mag) because I'd heard people say it was better for bright guitars, and I'd already done a JB2 and found out what that was like. The JB2 made me think of that EVH kind of tone, but in my guitar the low strings just would turn into flub. That's the best way I know to describe it. But the higher notes sounded awesome. The JB8 is similar to this - but without the loose bottom end. But then again not exactly. Both tame the harshness of the plain JB a lot. The JB2 is like the Warren DeMartini custom shop pickup that SD makes. I could see it working well in a guitar with a maple neck, Floyd Rose, and any kind of solid body - like alder or ash, basswood, maple etc. The CC is suppoed to be good in similar guitars as well.

 

[tfarny]

This is a really interesting thread - whole new areas of guitar geek tinkering opening up...thanks for sharing all this Gary.

 

[blue313]

P-90s are apparently more fun.  They have 2 magnets in them which can be mismatched.  South side toward the polepieces.

 

[GoDrex]

I've enjoyed experiementing with it. I'm probably done though. The cool thing is I feel like I have more options if I try a pickup and I'm not quite happy with. Also I better understand how the different magnets effect the tone and feel. I know for a fact that if I even want a guitar to do metal I'm going with an A8 magnet - without a doubt. I wish I had one 20 years ago. :headbang:

 

[GoDrex]

P-90s are apparently more fun.  They have 2 magnets in them which can be mismatched.  South side toward the polepieces.

Well I wouldn't mess with Lollars - they're supposed to sound awesome as they are. I only got into doing this because I was unhappy with 3 different bridge pickups in one guitar.

 

[blue313]

Agreed, his A5's are degaussed to a certain degree for character.  I haven't gotten into gaussing yet, but I do have the neodymium magnets already.

 

[GoDrex]

What is degaussing supposed to do to the tone? A slightly weaker A8 would probably be nice.

 

[GoDrex]

This seems like a neat thing to be interested in, but I SURE wish I knew what anyone was actually talking about when they say:
Bright
Tight
Chimy
Scooped
Jangly

I've used the word tight a lot as a description. I can tell you what it means to me. I use tight to describe the tone of the bass strings, when played with distortion and muting the strings (or not, but you get a better idea of it when you mute). When the sound is tight you get a more solid sounding thump or chuck sound when picking. When it's loose the bass booms more than thumps. So tight, to me, is great for metal where I want the low notes and power chords to be really articulate sounding. Ceramic, and A8 seem to do this the best.  Also active pickups. They can handle lower turnings better. A5's can also do this but you start getting some bass boom mixed in. The A2 doesn't really thump or chunk as much when you mute (at least not in my guitar). Another good descriptive word is "chewy" - - that's when I think of when I think of an A2 magnet. That one is harder to describe. It's like a combination of the sound and the feel of it hahaha

 

[blue313]

By degaussing or regaussing the magnet, youll get less or more of what that particular magnet is bringing to the mix.  Its one of a hundred reasons that vintage PAF's sound the way they do, the magnets have naturally degaussed a bit.

The A8 is a tough one to degauss but you already have a ceramic handy, and ceramics hold their charge far longer than others.  Similar poles repelling each other will degauss, and opposites will regauss.  It helps to have powerful magnets for time sake, but not necessary. 

 

[tfarny]

Time for me to chime on this - I just swapped the A2 in my Pearly Gates (LP bridge) with an A4 from the Bay. I went A4 just to be different, and bought an A3 for good measure. Wow that was so easy! Not having covers, and the pickup itself already being somewhat trashed looks-wise, made it even easier.
And yeah it sounds like a really different pickup - tighter, little less squealy, and definitely tighter bass which was the main thing I hated about the old sound (floppy bass when overdriven). Definitely different character to the upper-midrange as well. Me likee for tube OD sounds, maybe not as good for clean but that's what neck pups are for. Thanks again Gary for turning me on to this mod. One more variable to toy with.

 

[GoDrex]

On the SD forum, the guy who convinced me to try magnet swapping - Bluesman335 - is a big fan of the A4 magnet for taming bright or harsh bridge pickups, and giving a more even tone.

I have an A4 magnet though I'm not sure if I'll use it. Really liking the Alnico II Pro pickup right now and surprised that I am.

 

[blue313]

Wow that was so easy! Not having covers, and the pickup itself already being somewhat trashed looks-wise, made it even easier.

Grats man!  That's exactly what I said to myself when I tried it this winter.  Huge difference for minimal work.

On the SD forum, the guy who convinced me to try magnet swapping - Bluesman335 - is a big fan of the A4 magnet for taming bright or harsh bridge pickups, and giving a more even tone.

That guy is a swapping fiend!  He's the same guy that (indirectly) convinced me to try it as well.  The JB8 is now a permanent fixture in my Schecter, the '59 ended up back with the A5.  I still have to get around to trying a hybrid.  Any tips or caveats Gary?

 

[GoDrex]

Tips for making a hybrid - - well, read the instructions at the SD forum and you should have no trouble - especially if you're moderately handy and have used a soldering iron before.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22538

One thing I don't think he mentions is that SD uses some sort of clear plastic tape on the wires that are soldered together. So when I was making mine I used clear packing tape to kind of mimic the stuff that was there in the pickup. Worked well for me. The usual kind of black electrical tape probably won't be sticky enough. That stuff is meant to be pulled super tight anyway and I don't see how you could do that on these tiny wires.

Also take note of the way the wires are stuffed in there and you might be able to kind of get them back in the same way.

Another thing is if you're really careful it is possible to re-use the tape that's wrapped around the coils - it should stay sticky enough. I bought a roll of the nice cloth tape from stewmac anyway because I wasn't sure, and it works great if you need it.

I can't think of any other concerns.

 

[GoDrex]

I put an A4 mag into one of my pickups today, to try it out. I'm going to try it out for a while to give it a good chance. Right now after about an hour or so of playing I like some aspects of it and dislike others. I like the mid range and evenness of the tone. I think with a band it would work pretty well in the mix. It's also pretty tight on the low end. It seems pretty even all around. Maybe too even and flat though for me. It lacks the sparkle of an A5 mag. But there's somthing apealing about the smooth mid range-y tone for soloing. So I'm kind of torn.

I'll probably try the A2 and A8 and end up going back to the A5 hahahaha :laughing7: