Legacy 3 Died - Searching for a New Amp

[MikeW]

Well, I blew up my Legacy 3 (again) at practice on Wednesday so I think it's time to invest in something a little more stable. After looking through the thousands of pics/descriptions and spending a couple hours at the local GC last night I think I've got it narrowed down to two options.

1. EVH 5150 III 50w Head
2. DV Mark Multiamp (The Mono coming out early next year looks very interesting.)

Why these two? I've got a G-System on the floor and am controlling channels, boost and reverb on the amp from the G-System so having a MIDI interface on the amp is a must.

Any thoughts on those two? Specifically about reliability. The Legacy, for all it's great tone and flexibility, was a liability on tubes and seemingly now, a transformer.

I'm open to just about any suggestion really. What do you have that you'd recommend?

Thx all.

 

[bagman67]

Don't get me wrong.  I love tube amps for how they sound.  But if reliability is a key issue for you, you should dump your tube amp.  If you can afford it, the Axe FX and Kemper machines might be the right tool for the job.  Maybe a PC-based solution - the Eleven rig gets pretty good marks, for a lot less dough.


If you want to stick with tubes, Mesa Boogie is generally a very reliable machine, but they don't come cheap if you want all the bells and whistles. But you can probably get into a used F-50 head or combo for 600 bucks, or an F-100 for 700ish.


If you can lay your hands on a Yamaha T50 or T100, they are great amps designed for Yamaha by Michael Soldano.  You might look up some of the mods Soldano recommends so the amp more closely approximates his vision, since Yamaha cut a few corners to save some pennies here and there.  Be advised:  the T100 weighs a f*cking ton.  Lots of glass, huge transformers, aching back.  Install wheels - I did, and it was a lifesaver.  Be advised, they were all built in the early 1990's, so if you pick one up, you'll likely need to do some initial maintenance.  Probably worth it to fairly closely approximate a Soldano SLO tone, though, if that's your bag.


If you want to buy a new amp, Blackstar have been getting a lot of good press*, but I don't know how they hold up over time.


*By "good press," I mean I have heard good things from actual players, not the music gear press, which I assume has been bought and paid for by the major manufacturers whose gear is being "evaluated."

 

[dmraco]

I do like tubes...The EVH 5150 III is a great little amp.  I REALLY like my MESA Mini Recto.  Both those will set you back around $800.

For the Cash the Jet City JCH22 head is KILLER

 

[stratamania]

The Blackstar Series one have MIDI, but a G System does have relays for Amps without MIDI.

Probably expensive in the US, but Engl SE or the Engl Steve Morse both have MIDI and are both quality amps.

 

[bagman67]

Ah, I missed the part about midi control.  Never mind my post, basically.

 

[MikeW]

I should have added this to the original post, but I'll do it here. One of the reasons that I'm looking for MIDI enabled amps is that we're usually stuck on smaller stages so having a lot of functionality in a small footprint is a necessity. I'm really trying to get rid of needing a separate footswitch for the amp. That's why I'm using the G-System. All my effects and amp controls are there, minus my Cry Baby. It's a great rig considering the footprint is so small.

Don't get me wrong.  I love tube amps for how they sound.  But if reliability is a key issue for you, you should dump your tube amp.  If you can afford it, the Axe FX and Kemper machines might be the right tool for the job.  Maybe a PC-based solution - the Eleven rig gets pretty good marks, for a lot less dough.

I'm not averse to the Kemper or the AxeFX, but they're not in my price range at the moment. I'm actually interested in the DV Mark since it's in the price range (sub $1K), it's a modeler like the AxeFX and Kemper amps, is MIDI controllable, and has a power amp built-in. It's rated at 500w @ 4 ohms and 250w @ 8 ohms. That should be enough given that the Legacy 3 is 100w and blows the walls down in most of the places we play.

I've actually thought about the Eleven Rack, but I'm afraid that that plus a power amp plus a rack would put me over what I've got to spend.

If you want to stick with tubes, Mesa Boogie is generally a very reliable machine, but they don't come cheap if you want all the bells and whistles. But you can probably get into a used F-50 head or combo for 600 bucks, or an F-100 for 700ish.

If you can lay your hands on a Yamaha T50 or T100, they are great amps designed for Yamaha by Michael Soldano.  You might look up some of the mods Soldano recommends so the amp more closely approximates his vision, since Yamaha cut a few corners to save some pennies here and there.  Be advised:  the T100 weighs a f*cking ton.  Lots of glass, huge transformers, aching back.  Install wheels - I did, and it was a lifesaver.  Be advised, they were all built in the early 1990's, so if you pick one up, you'll likely need to do some initial maintenance.  Probably worth it to fairly closely approximate a Soldano SLO tone, though, if that's your bag.

The Mesa TA 30 was on my original list, but I crossed it off since you can't really control the channels on the thing without flipping the tiny switches on the front control panel. Not the best solution for darkened stages.

I played a Blackstar HT5H last night and was pretty impressed with the sound. If it had MIDI I might have picked it up.

 

[MikeW]

I do like tubes...The EVH 5150 III is a great little amp.  I REALLY like my MESA Mini Recto.  Both those will set you back around $800.

For the Cash the Jet City JCH22 head is KILLER

I played the 5150 III a week or so ago and really liked it. The clean channel and the high-gain channel were great. I wasn't so impressed with their "crunch" channel, but I can work around that. The killer of it is that it's MIDI controllable as well. That's why it's at the top of my list right now.

The Mesa's and the JC's don't have MIDI unfortunately. I might have picked up the Mesa TA 30 if it did.

 

[MikeW]

The Blackstar Series one have MIDI, but a G System does have relays for Amps without MIDI.

Probably expensive in the US, but Engl SE or the Engl Steve Morse both have MIDI and are both quality amps.

The Blackstar One 50 looks really nice, but is out of the price range unfortunately. I might see about picking up the ID60TVP though. For a solid state, that one looks pretty good too.

 

[stratamania]

The Blackstar ID series have had good reviews and seem to be a good value for the money.

 

[stubhead]

I know you need an amp more than a concept, but Axe-Fx are the guys who unequivocally proved the "tube thing" is drifting towards insanity at an accelerating rate. Whatever you need to do to get through next week is one thing, but accumulating stuff is a guitarist's, American's, and Cro-Magnon's birthright, and accumulating a decent stereo 400-1000w power amp will provide you with choices down the road.
At the very least, think of the home stereo!  :icon_thumright:

What did Carvin have to say about reimbursement, discount coupons etc? I believe they are one of those companies that likes to keep customers, and they sell a lot of other stuff....

 

[Cagey]

For what it's worth, one of my brothers bought into the DV-Mark Multi-Amp recently and was unimpressed to the point where he returned it. He currently has a Marshall JCM2000, a Fender Super Champ XL, a Rivera Fandango and a Rivera Venus for a backline. He couldn't reproduce the sound of any of them with the DV Mark. I never got to hear the thing, he had it so briefly, but I do have to qualify all that by saying he's not a "tinkerer", per se. If he can't twiddle a few knobs and reach Nirvana, he tends to lose interest fast. It's possible some closer attention may have helped it.

In any event, he's also determined to get off the tube amp maintenance merry-go-round. It's just too unpredictable and expensive, not to mention everything being heavy as sin. so his next move will probably be a Kemper.

For what one of those cost, I did the Axe Fx instead and am supremely happy, but that's just me. I've also owned an Avid 11 Rack w/ Ground Control Pro MIDI board. Worked well, but it was no Axe Fx. Still, for what they cost, it's a helluva lotta preamp for the money. Sound great. You can pick those up on eBay all day long for between $300-$400 as guys buy them as a package deal with Pro Tools 11 then dump the 11 Rack to get some of the money back. It's a lot cheaper than buying Pro Tools by itself, and it's a full-tilt boogie package. GCP run about the same, and I still have one of those I haven't put on the block yet, but will part with easily. I don't think you'd need one if you've already got something you like for a MIDI controller. So, add a Carvin DCM1000L ($319 new) and a 4 space rack, you're at around $700 for a pretty high-quality rig. Assuming you have a speaker, of course. FR/FR speakers are best with modellers, but you can use regular guitar speakers to good effect as well.

 

[MikeW]

In any event, he's also determined to get off the tube amp maintenance merry-go-round. It's just too unpredictable and expensive ...

This. I got the Legacy back. Blew two power tubes and a volume pot. Cost me almost $250 with labor. Ugh. I love the sounds I get out of the thing, but it's just costing too much in tubes and labor to be worth it. And we're gigging 3 to 4 times a month now, plus practices and jams, so the thing is getting moved all the time. There's just too many times something could go wrong.

For what one of those cost, I did the Axe Fx instead and am supremely happy, but that's just me. I've also owned an Avid 11 Rack w/ Ground Control Pro MIDI board. Worked well, but it was no Axe Fx. Still, for what they cost, it's a helluva lotta preamp for the money. Sound great. You can pick those up on eBay all day long for between $300-$400 as guys buy them as a package deal with Pro Tools 11 then dump the 11 Rack to get some of the money back. It's a lot cheaper than buying Pro Tools by itself, and it's a full-tilt boogie package. GCP run about the same, and I still have one of those I haven't put on the block yet, but will part with easily. I don't think you'd need one if you've already got something you like for a MIDI controller. So, add a Carvin DCM1000L ($319 new) and a 4 space rack, you're at around $700 for a pretty high-quality rig. Assuming you have a speaker, of course. FR/FR speakers are best with modellers, but you can use regular guitar speakers to good effect as well.

I'm planning on using the Carvin cabinet I got with the Legacy. Details here. I think that will work well enough for now.

I'm mulling over the 11 Rack. That seems like a pretty good preamp and there are a ton of them out there for right around $350 which is definitely in the price range. I really don't need all the effects and models though. I'm really just looking for a good two or three channel preamp. With the G-System, I've got more effects than I can reasonably use anyway so having that in the preamp is a bit redundant.

Here's what I'm thinking at the moment. This as the preamp:
Tech21 SansAmp PSA
It's a little pricey, but I like that it's MIDI controllable.

This as the power amp:
Carvin DCM200L

All buried in one of these:
Gemini H Short Rack

Thoughts?

 

[MikeW]

I know you need an amp more than a concept, but Axe-Fx are the guys who unequivocally proved the "tube thing" is drifting towards insanity at an accelerating rate. Whatever you need to do to get through next week is one thing, but accumulating stuff is a guitarist's, American's, and Cro-Magnon's birthright, and accumulating a decent stereo 400-1000w power amp will provide you with choices down the road.
At the very least, think of the home stereo!  :icon_thumright:

I really like what I see out of stuff like the Axe FX and 11 Rack and there's no denying that it's the wave of the future. Like in surfing, when epoxy resin started to displace polyurethane resin, there was a period when the market wouldn't let go of the 'ain't broke, don't fix' mentality. But as soon as any surfer who knew anything about boards surfed one, and saw that the strength to weight ratio was so far superior to the traditional poly boards, the only reason for keeping a poly board was for nostalgia.

I think we're heading there with tube amps too. There will always be a market for them, but modelers and effects units ala AxeFX, are going to take over. It's probably just a matter of moving the 'old' generation out and letting the 'new' generation (or the thinking of the new generation) take over.

I HATE repressing my inner Cro-Magnon, but I'm pretty sure the Finance Department is going to veto me completely redoing my rig. Especially right before Christmas.
:laughing7:

What did Carvin have to say about reimbursement, discount coupons etc? I believe they are one of those companies that likes to keep customers, and they sell a lot of other stuff....

Yep, and they did it right with me too. I've been really pleased with the Legacy overall. The tone is superior to just about anything else I've tried. It's just the finicky-ness, brittle-ness, whatever you want to call it, that's got me mulling a change.

 

[Cagey]

I think you'll be pleased with the 11 rack. But, worst case, you can flip it quickly for about what you pay for it. It's a nice piece of gear for the money.

The Carvin DCM200L is a great piece, too. I have one here that's served me well. But, be aware that there's little correlation between tube and transistor amp power levels. If you're used to a 100 watt tube head, you'll probably want 1000 watts in a solid state amp to get similar performance.

 

[MikeW]

The Carvin DCM200L is a great piece, too. I have one here that's served me well. But, be aware that there's little correlation between tube and transistor amp power levels. If you're used to a 100 watt tube head, you'll probably want 1000 watts in a solid state amp to get similar performance.

I'm thinking that the DCM200L is what I'll need since most of the venues we're playing are small clubs where 100w just isn't necessary. The few gigs we play that are in bigger spaces all have had sound boards for FOH where we're miked up. A 100w head there is great to fill the stage but really isn't necessary since I can hear myself both through the mains and the monitors.

 

[stubhead]

I was just cruising the new"Premier Guitar" when I came across this:
http://shop.fractalaudio.com/FX8_Multi_Effects_Pedalboard_p/fas-007.htm

Fractal Audio is making their own, downsized floorboard "greatest hits" kind of unit. At $1349 it ain't cheap - considering that the competition from the Digitech RP1000 and the Line 6 HD500X are $500. They're going STRAIGHT AT TC Electronics' G-System, for the same price... and it probably sounds better. But everything is getting better/cheaper/faster, you almost feel dumb NOT waiting for the next wave...  Surely Fractal's little fellow will sound just as good as the big one, just less options.

I mean, I'm quite happy with the Digitech RP250, it's go the same basic sound sets as their rackmount GSP1101 and the RP1000, it just sounds better than the previous POD's; and Fractal will eventually be poking out some little $500 unit of their own - or somebody will. I have a Boss RC20XL looper that was state-of-the-art six years ago, but I just got a Pigtronix Infinity that completely smokes it sound-wise. It's got some kind of invisible compression/limiting that is just unbelievably fine, and it can be reconfigured via USB into a huge number of different ways of behaving. We surely live in the right times for tone, at least. :toothy12:

 

[mayfly]

I saw that as well.  I don't think that it has amp models in it though - just effects.

 

[MikeW]

Fractal Audio is making their own, downsized floorboard "greatest hits" kind of unit. At $1349 it ain't cheap - considering that the competition from the Digitech RP1000 and the Line 6 HD500X are $500. They're going STRAIGHT AT TC Electronics' G-System, for the same price... and it probably sounds better. But everything is getting better/cheaper/faster, you almost feel dumb NOT waiting for the next wave...  Surely Fractal's little fellow will sound just as good as the big one, just less options.

I read about a couple days ago as I was researching preamps. They're definitely going after the G-System with it, and the one killer feature with the FX8 is that you can switch the order of the effects in the chain and even have multiple effects of the same type (modulation, delay, etc.) in the chain. That'll be the thing that undoes the G-System since it's got great effects, but you can't change either order or type of effects.

It'd be interesting to do a A/B between the two once it comes out and see how easy it is to set up. The G-System was pretty quick through the onboard interface, and the editor is good once you figure out the few quirks it has. I've never used a Fractal product so I don't really have any means of comparison.

 

[stratamania]

I saw that as well.  I don't think that it has amp models in it though - just effects.

Yes just effects, no amp modelling.

From what I have read and not mentioned so far in the thread it has very high quality converters, so folks won't run into the type of issues that some did with the G System needing to use extra bits and pieces like hum eliminators and Lehle Sunday drivers.

Of course the latter Gs have a modified input buffer, but it hasn't had much of a radical update for years.

I wonder if TC has something waiting in the wings. And I get the feeling Line 6 has something else they are working on, but there's no guessing which way they may go.