Just ordered a new Jeep Rubicon!
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Jusatele
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I think it takes a few years on trail and at camp to get that off road thing down
A break down or two, getting stuck and having to wait for someone to come along for a recovery
Someone dropping by camp and giving you a trail report
after a while you get the vibe.
It is about the trip and the destination.
It is like you get extremely pissed if you are in traffic and it takes 10 minutes to go 2 miles
but out there you are thrilled when the trail takes all day to go 5 miles
A beans and a campfire passing a bottle of 5 dollar wine seems a lot better than a steak and a 50 dollar bottle of wine out of crystal stemware.
Have some great memories under a Jeep welding up a broken spring mount using 2 batteries hooked up in series, 105 degree heat, Down in Baja, having a sandwich passed to your greasy hands, buying gas out of 55 gallon barrel straining it with a t-shirt. Before the days of GPS and using maps and compass and landmarks to figure out WTF you are. Traveling historic trails like the Mojave Trail being a few days without seeing civilization dependent on your rig and a few Jerry cans of gas to make it through.
Looking off the edge of a mountain at the valley 7000 feet below, the cold bite of morning smelling coffee and bacon as it curls into your tent, listening t the bang of pans and clank of cups as guys get stirring in the morning
the sound of the desert at night sleeping curled up in a blanket under your jeep
looking out over the Sonora desert from a ridge and being able to look over 75 miles plus of land
Finding the wagon trail along the Lassen Applegate road
Pulling into Rubicon Springs
Exploring the east coast of the Baja peninsula
Mikes Camp
Spending the night at a natural hot springs and jumping in for a much needed rinse off, any longer than 2 minutes means pain
Fresh caught trout grilled stream side
yea, I think it has it's drawbacks, but I cannot remember them for some reasons
A break down or two, getting stuck and having to wait for someone to come along for a recovery
Someone dropping by camp and giving you a trail report
after a while you get the vibe.
It is about the trip and the destination.
It is like you get extremely pissed if you are in traffic and it takes 10 minutes to go 2 miles
but out there you are thrilled when the trail takes all day to go 5 miles
A beans and a campfire passing a bottle of 5 dollar wine seems a lot better than a steak and a 50 dollar bottle of wine out of crystal stemware.
Have some great memories under a Jeep welding up a broken spring mount using 2 batteries hooked up in series, 105 degree heat, Down in Baja, having a sandwich passed to your greasy hands, buying gas out of 55 gallon barrel straining it with a t-shirt. Before the days of GPS and using maps and compass and landmarks to figure out WTF you are. Traveling historic trails like the Mojave Trail being a few days without seeing civilization dependent on your rig and a few Jerry cans of gas to make it through.
Looking off the edge of a mountain at the valley 7000 feet below, the cold bite of morning smelling coffee and bacon as it curls into your tent, listening t the bang of pans and clank of cups as guys get stirring in the morning
the sound of the desert at night sleeping curled up in a blanket under your jeep
looking out over the Sonora desert from a ridge and being able to look over 75 miles plus of land
Finding the wagon trail along the Lassen Applegate road
Pulling into Rubicon Springs
Exploring the east coast of the Baja peninsula
Mikes Camp
Spending the night at a natural hot springs and jumping in for a much needed rinse off, any longer than 2 minutes means pain
Fresh caught trout grilled stream side
yea, I think it has it's drawbacks, but I cannot remember them for some reasons
Torment Leaves Scars
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I probably won't see much off-roading as there just aren't any nearby places to really do it...legally, anyway.
Rachel and I are planning a trip to Butler, PA for August. We're going to the big Jeep extravaganza they're supposedly having. It should be a lot of fun and a chance to get off-road!
Rachel and I are planning a trip to Butler, PA for August. We're going to the big Jeep extravaganza they're supposedly having. It should be a lot of fun and a chance to get off-road!
Jusatele
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Wow
I hate to say this
but you really need the Sahara model
you see you are paying a premium for stuff like lockers and a 4 to 1 transfer case
and
Lockers are not to be used on road, in snow and icethey create an effect called crowning which makes the vehicle go to the lowest point on the road, which means the shoulder,
plus that 4 to 1 transfer case is way low, designed for creeping along, the 2.67 to 1 will serve you better.
You see what you want for off road is not what you want for a Jeep on road. a road has a low shear surface and the dirt is a high shear surface.
OK if you are in 4x4 high it is ok, no difference you will not be using the lockers but why pay for them if you do not need them? You are paying a lot of money for a package you will never use. A 4x4 Sahara is a nice vehicle on and off road
I hate to say this
but you really need the Sahara model
you see you are paying a premium for stuff like lockers and a 4 to 1 transfer case
and
Lockers are not to be used on road, in snow and icethey create an effect called crowning which makes the vehicle go to the lowest point on the road, which means the shoulder,
plus that 4 to 1 transfer case is way low, designed for creeping along, the 2.67 to 1 will serve you better.
You see what you want for off road is not what you want for a Jeep on road. a road has a low shear surface and the dirt is a high shear surface.
OK if you are in 4x4 high it is ok, no difference you will not be using the lockers but why pay for them if you do not need them? You are paying a lot of money for a package you will never use. A 4x4 Sahara is a nice vehicle on and off road
Torment Leaves Scars
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Jusatele said:
I'm a bit confused. What do you mean by "the vehicle will go to the lowest point of the road?"
I see more than a fair share of Rubicons on the road on a daily basis. I'm a bit confused as to why it wouldn't be efficient in daily driving. If there's snow on the road, the Rubicon would actually be better than the other model lines, would it not?
Under what conditions would I want to use the lockers? Would that only be for rock crawling or would I use them in mud and snow as well?
Jusatele
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do not be confused
when in 4x4, if your diffs are open then you have no problem but if you use lockers in 4x4 in snow or ice the vehicle crowns,(crownng is the vehicle sliding to the bottom of the road) what happens is there is equal traction on both tires and nothing is dragging, it is the friction of the dragging tire keeps the vehicle where it is at in lane, so lockers are not your friend in ice and snow, you are paying for lockers in the Rubicon package, and you state you will not use it much off road so why pay for the lockers or the 4 to 1 tcase, A Sahara with out lockers and a 2.67 to 1 tcase will do great for your application.
the only place you want to use the lockers or the low range is off road. the rubicon has a 4 to 1 low range, the Sahara has a 2.67 to 1 low range, the difference is huge, if you are not going rock crawling a 4 to 1 low range is a pain. Most terrain a 2.67 is great, in the deserts a 2 to 1 is great.
I am only trying to save you a few dollars
I mean it sounds like you want a Rubicon because you want a big bad jeep, but in reality you are buying a OFF ROAD package that you will never use and when you sell it the only person who will benefit is the off road enthusiast that buys it from you thanking you for keeping it pristene so he had a cheap Rubicon to build
Remember using lockers on road can cause driveline bind and that breaks expensive parts. There is no reason to have them on a jeep that is not going to go off road very much.
I could print all day here, and I am telling you the truth. The Rubicon is a 2000 dollar package that I think you re not going to use. over the course of a 6 year loan that is 34.55 dollars a month and 2455.06 over the length of the loan, plus there is an insurance premium for going with a Rubicon over a Sahara.
the reason it will not be as efficient on road is you are getting 4.11 gears in the differentials, those are in there so the wheels will turn slower and develop more torque. A Sahara is gong have 3.73 gears in the diffs, much better for gas mileage.
so as you can see, the Rubicon package looks nice, but in truth unless you are going be off raod a lot it cost you upfront, during the cost of the loan and in money pushing it down the road. I do not mind, mine goes off road a lot. But I think for your needs a Sahara would work better.
However it is your decision.
when in 4x4, if your diffs are open then you have no problem but if you use lockers in 4x4 in snow or ice the vehicle crowns,(crownng is the vehicle sliding to the bottom of the road) what happens is there is equal traction on both tires and nothing is dragging, it is the friction of the dragging tire keeps the vehicle where it is at in lane, so lockers are not your friend in ice and snow, you are paying for lockers in the Rubicon package, and you state you will not use it much off road so why pay for the lockers or the 4 to 1 tcase, A Sahara with out lockers and a 2.67 to 1 tcase will do great for your application.
the only place you want to use the lockers or the low range is off road. the rubicon has a 4 to 1 low range, the Sahara has a 2.67 to 1 low range, the difference is huge, if you are not going rock crawling a 4 to 1 low range is a pain. Most terrain a 2.67 is great, in the deserts a 2 to 1 is great.
I am only trying to save you a few dollars
I mean it sounds like you want a Rubicon because you want a big bad jeep, but in reality you are buying a OFF ROAD package that you will never use and when you sell it the only person who will benefit is the off road enthusiast that buys it from you thanking you for keeping it pristene so he had a cheap Rubicon to build
Remember using lockers on road can cause driveline bind and that breaks expensive parts. There is no reason to have them on a jeep that is not going to go off road very much.
I could print all day here, and I am telling you the truth. The Rubicon is a 2000 dollar package that I think you re not going to use. over the course of a 6 year loan that is 34.55 dollars a month and 2455.06 over the length of the loan, plus there is an insurance premium for going with a Rubicon over a Sahara.
the reason it will not be as efficient on road is you are getting 4.11 gears in the differentials, those are in there so the wheels will turn slower and develop more torque. A Sahara is gong have 3.73 gears in the diffs, much better for gas mileage.
so as you can see, the Rubicon package looks nice, but in truth unless you are going be off raod a lot it cost you upfront, during the cost of the loan and in money pushing it down the road. I do not mind, mine goes off road a lot. But I think for your needs a Sahara would work better.
However it is your decision.
Torment Leaves Scars
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Jusatele said:
Regarding the locking diffs, if I were in snow, the same lack of traction would be at all four wheels, right? Given that situation, why would the vehicle pull? Wouldn't it be the same story in a lot of mud?
Jusatele
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ok follow me
this would be so much easier over the phone
Ice, snow, rain, all take a road from being a low shear surface, and make it a high shear surface.
in other words, the surface you actually are on can break away easy
now on a prefect surface when you are in 2 wheel drive you have traction in both driving wheels
However that is perfect conditions, you almost never have that, between turns, sand, water, oil and such on the road most of the time our tires are turning at different speeds, that is why we have differentials. What a differential does is allows the tires to turn at different speeds so you do not break the gears and hop around. However they also are what gets you stuck, you see when one wheel is in mud and one is on the road the diff spins the one on the high sear and little torque gets to the one on the low shear surface. (simple explanation I know just ride with it)
and so on snow we slip slide around because we only have one tire driving at a time.
so we put it in 4x4 and now we have 1 tire in front and 1 tire in the rear driving at all time making us a lot more stable
now if we put it into 4x4 and lock our diffs we now have 4 tires turning at the exact same rate at all times
now , if we are in the snow and ice, and we hit the brakes do we not slide off the road to the lowest point
that is what crowning is, because all 4 tires are turning at the same rate it looks like 4 tires locked in brakes to the surface, little control. If we had kept it in 4x4 without locking our axles the fact that the traction was being switched constantly between tires on each axle would keep the vehicle in the lane where you want it.
go get any book on 4x4ing that and look up crowning, or how to drive on ice and snow and it will tell you that lockers are not to be used in that scenario.
this would be so much easier over the phone
Ice, snow, rain, all take a road from being a low shear surface, and make it a high shear surface.
in other words, the surface you actually are on can break away easy
now on a prefect surface when you are in 2 wheel drive you have traction in both driving wheels
However that is perfect conditions, you almost never have that, between turns, sand, water, oil and such on the road most of the time our tires are turning at different speeds, that is why we have differentials. What a differential does is allows the tires to turn at different speeds so you do not break the gears and hop around. However they also are what gets you stuck, you see when one wheel is in mud and one is on the road the diff spins the one on the high sear and little torque gets to the one on the low shear surface. (simple explanation I know just ride with it)
and so on snow we slip slide around because we only have one tire driving at a time.
so we put it in 4x4 and now we have 1 tire in front and 1 tire in the rear driving at all time making us a lot more stable
now if we put it into 4x4 and lock our diffs we now have 4 tires turning at the exact same rate at all times
now , if we are in the snow and ice, and we hit the brakes do we not slide off the road to the lowest point
that is what crowning is, because all 4 tires are turning at the same rate it looks like 4 tires locked in brakes to the surface, little control. If we had kept it in 4x4 without locking our axles the fact that the traction was being switched constantly between tires on each axle would keep the vehicle in the lane where you want it.
go get any book on 4x4ing that and look up crowning, or how to drive on ice and snow and it will tell you that lockers are not to be used in that scenario.
Jusatele
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here is a cut and paste from the link following the paragraph
On ice and snow, the spool and locker are probably the worst
choices for highway driving because if there is any wheel
spin, it is always both wheels spinning at the same time.
That means that neither of that axle's wheels can help
control the vehicle's direction. With a limited slip or
open diff, generally only one wheel will spin, allowing the
other to help track the vehicle in a straight line. A manual
locker would also be a good choice for snow/ice-covered
roads because you can choose how it should operate. Having
said that, there are many people who drive their automatic
locker-equipped vehicles on icy roads on a regular basis. It
all depends on your comfort level.
http://www.bc4x4.com/faqs/yj.cfm?cat=7&faqid=156
a google search for "lockers in the snow" and you will see what I am talking about
On ice and snow, the spool and locker are probably the worst
choices for highway driving because if there is any wheel
spin, it is always both wheels spinning at the same time.
That means that neither of that axle's wheels can help
control the vehicle's direction. With a limited slip or
open diff, generally only one wheel will spin, allowing the
other to help track the vehicle in a straight line. A manual
locker would also be a good choice for snow/ice-covered
roads because you can choose how it should operate. Having
said that, there are many people who drive their automatic
locker-equipped vehicles on icy roads on a regular basis. It
all depends on your comfort level.
http://www.bc4x4.com/faqs/yj.cfm?cat=7&faqid=156
a google search for "lockers in the snow" and you will see what I am talking about
Torment Leaves Scars
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Jusatele said:
Ah, gotcha now. I see what you're sayin'.
Thanks for the explanation, Jim.