Jeez...Visited a music store

[JCizzle]

Just my humble opinion: I'm fairly new to Warmoth and building, but upon completion of my first build I will have both Fender and Gibson USA guitars in addition to the new Warmoth. Honestly, the Warmoth has cost more than both of those guitars, not including the time I will spend putting it together. However, the quality seems to be very high, and the Warmoth is built exactly the way I want it, taking aspects from all different kinds of guitars and making them into one. Even though it cost more, trying to get a guitar built like that from one of the major manufacturers would probably cost upwards of 5 grand or more.

I the end, I think it's all good, and we all have a choice who we buy/build from and we should exercise that choice as we see fit. Rock on, everyone.  arty07:

 

[Jusatele]

Mr JesusChristizzle
you have to remember the Warmoth you bought will have a premium price because you paid retail for everything. A manufacturer is going to either make themselves or purchase at wholesale all the hardware on that guitar. I know Fender makes every part on thier guitar but the tuners in Corona in the same building as they make the guitars, the only process they do not do themselves is the chrome plating.
That is a significant savings over how you get parts, plus the wood is in blank form when they get it as opposed to a product ready for finish.
Another detail is you get a hard case with a American built guitar, not factoered into your Warmoth build.
Yea Warmoth's are expensive when looked at such as that, retail for everything and even with out factoring in the build labor, not to mention set up labor, you end up paying a ton for a Warmoth. However if done right and using all top shelf hardware, then the guitar is actually cheap compared to boutique shop prices.

 

[tfarny]

Electric guitars are lots cheaper than other instruments. Gibsons are fairly priced - are you kidding? Look at the other American makers still out there. I played a Hamer USA Newport a few months ago, almost bought it, it was like $1200 used. Perfect QC, not a single flaw. Same thing with the Japanese made (high wage country) Elitist Epiphones, I've seen two and they were flawless at under $1500 new. PRS - sure you pay Gibson prices but the guitars are flawless and beautiful.

 

[KaiserSoze]

Ah, A healthy debate.  I guess at the end of the day if I need a new guitar I'll either do another Warmoth build or play fifty guitars in a box store to find one with frets that are remotely level.  Prolly just take a look in the showcase this morning  hmmm...

 

[Jcurl02]

I'm sure I'm missing something here.

I own a Gretsch (old American made), a MIM Strat, a Gibson Gold Top Les Paul, A Warmoth Tele and a Warmoth Tele on the way.

I'm confused about all the digs on the quality of the Gibsons, Fenders etc.  I'm very pleased with mine, and I bought out of a catalog!  The reason I say that is I got them sight unseen.

My confusion comes from, if you don't like the quality of the one you tried at the store, pick up the ones next to it.  Most stores have much more than one or two in stock.  If you like the sound of the one that has "flaws", well then you probably are a person that is in to tone and not looks (flaws).  So what does it matter if it has a paint run?

Also, if you are like me, they almost never get played (a very bad thing I must say) and looks might be a factor.  If you play a lot, well then no matter how careful you are you will get dings.

Bad thing is, a used "poor quality" Gibson, Fender will most likely demand more in resale then a flawless Warmoth complete build.  (Yet I contiue to buildand enjopy them).  It's the open market.

 

[Johnny]

Bad thing is, a used "poor quality" Gibson, Fender will most likely demand more in resale then a flawless Warmoth complete build.  (Yet I contiue to buildand enjopy them).  It's the open market.

Yes, I think this is the only downside to Warmoth.  You can build something equivalent (or better) than a custom shop LP or Strat for half (or less) than what you will pay for the Gibson or Fender.  However, when you go to sell the LP or Strat, you probably won't have any significant depreciation (and perhaps even be able to sell it for more than you paid).  For the Warmoth, you will have paid a lot less, but if you go to sell, you will probably lose a fair amount of that investment.  It'd be a real concern to me except that I decided a long time ago that I was never selling any of my guitars.

 

[Jusatele]

Somehow I have never viewed my Warmoths as investments to get money out of, I have always considered them things I wanted and figured they were a loss for resale.

You see, resale has nothing to do with value, it is perceived value driven by market craze.
remember beany babys? how about base ball cards? Harleys are that way now too, 5 years ago a HD sold for 15 grand used, now days here in the LA area they go for 7 gs and they are begging you to take them.
As with the vintage market on guitars, it has collapsed now.

I see the Fender American market staying steady how it is, you take a 100 to 200 dollar ding for buying and then it stays that much under street price. The Gibson market around here is really slipping however, I think most guys wanting a Gibson now are looking for used stuff not made in the last 5 to 8 years and that is a lot of the reason, most guys just by pass a new Gibson as not a good buy.

As far as Warmoth, the quality is in the builders hands, I bet for every uber Warmoth there are 20 junk builds and that is why you can never get our money back on one.

 

[Cagey]

As far as Warmoth, the quality is in the builders hands, I bet for every uber Warmoth there are 20 junk builds and that is why you can never get our money back on one.

Y'know, it's funny... the first real live Warmoth I ever saw was a junk build by one of my guitar teachers. I mean, this thing was ragged. I'll bet he'd have had trouble getting $50 for the thing. I felt sorry for him. Of course, it was misleading. Thing looked like death, but it was set up to a fare-thee-well and he could play anything on it. Kinda what I imagine SRV's Strat was like, and a similar situation. Guy could play the guitar just like ringin' a bell. In the right hands, any fiddle can be made to make magic. Doesn't set the resale price, though.

 

[Jcurl02]

Johny 

I'm right there with you.  I still own all my real guitars I'v ever bought.  Probelm is that with my next Warmoth shipment (due in 5 weeks, sucks, custom builds take that long I'll have 10....

"  It'd be a real concern to me except that I decided a long time ago that I was never selling any of my guitars."

 

[fdesalvo]

I'd have zero issues with paying another $1700 for a LP if there was actual care taken in assembling the instrument correctly at the factory.  When you shell out that kind of money, you expect the little details to be taken care of.  I saw dried glue from the nut on the neck, uneven/poorly fitted inlays, binding with splotches of dye all over, uneven frets that were supposed to have been plekked, stripped screws, etc; I wondered what justified the cost of that guitar beyond sustaining the marketing and branding hyperbole. 

These are the reasons I unloaded that LP on eBay.  A less discriminating player sure is happy though - but for me, I'm cursed with an eye for detail and my wallet still stings me everytime I open it.  I gladly pay Warmoth ~ $1500 for customized parts that I can assemble myself ;I sleep better at night knowing attention to detail never lapsed from the time my body blank hit their table to the time I strap it on for each show. 

 

[Jusatele]

you know, I think I just thought up my next build

CrappoMaster

I am going get an JazzMaster body, make it look like it has been run over by a truck, and build the sweetest sounding JazzMaster. but it is gong have a broken off part, gibson neck, brushed on house paint finish and exposed wiring. However it will have 2 Lollar Imperial PAFs and top shelf hardware.

CrappoMaster, the ultimate insult to roadworn guitars.

 

[Strat Avenger]

I'd have zero issues with paying another $1700 for a LP if there was actual care taken in assembling the instrument correctly at the factory.  When you shell out that kind of money, you expect the little details to be taken care of.  I saw dried glue from the nut on the neck, uneven/poorly fitted inlays, binding with splotches of dye all over, uneven frets that were supposed to have been plekked, stripped screws, etc; I wondered what justified the cost of that guitar beyond sustaining the marketing and branding hyperbole. 

These are the reasons I unloaded that LP on eBay.  A less discriminating player sure is happy though - but for me, I'm cursed with an eye for detail and my wallet still stings me everytime I open it.  I gladly pay Warmoth ~ $1500 for customized parts that I can assemble myself ;I sleep better at night knowing attention to detail never lapsed from the time my body blank hit their table to the time I strap it on for each show.

+1 .

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I'm never buying a factory made guitar again.  I've owned several $1700+ Gibsons and their QC is a f'ing joke - glue drips, stained binding, poor fretwork, uneven inlays, poor nut/saddle work, and the list goes on.

Gibsons are some of the biggest piles of garbage on the market, and I've seen everything you have as well...and most of those issues you mentioned above are more common than not.

After having owned and played a Warmoth, I don't find myself wanting a factory-made guitar ever again; Custom Shop models are different, but not the basic run of the mill guitar...

 

[JCizzle]

Mr JesusChristizzle
you have to remember the Warmoth you bought will have a premium price because you paid retail for everything. A manufacturer is going to either make themselves or purchase at wholesale all the hardware on that guitar. I know Fender makes every part on thier guitar but the tuners in Corona in the same building as they make the guitars, the only process they do not do themselves is the chrome plating.
That is a significant savings over how you get parts, plus the wood is in blank form when they get it as opposed to a product ready for finish.
Another detail is you get a hard case with a American built guitar, not factoered into your Warmoth build.
Yea Warmoth's are expensive when looked at such as that, retail for everything and even with out factoring in the build labor, not to mention set up labor, you end up paying a ton for a Warmoth. However if done right and using all top shelf hardware, then the guitar is actually cheap compared to boutique shop prices.

I agree 100%. While my Warmoth might be a few hundred bucks more than what I paid for my Gibsons and Fender, it is a few grand less than what I would pay for a similar custom shop of boutique guitar.

 

[Jusatele]

well Mr izzle,
If we agree on that then you see as a hobbyist, the value of our guitars is within the community in monetary value, but the value as an instrument to play is among the musical community. A fellow musician may love the guitar, but if he knows it is your hobby they give you no cred for creating it, to them it is still a parts caster. Even though a boutique shop, with one famous builder, and 2 guys just like us, can get thousands for basically assembling just like us. They can CNC a body and neck, go one step further than us and put in the truss rod, ( a skill we could master after about 2 tries ) do everything else many of us have learned in the hobby using the most skilled guy at this or that in the shop, and they get respect because of a "reputation" we do not have.
I will put the playability of either of my Warmoth builds up against any similar product. And I think come out on the high end of the stick. Quality parts and attention to detail just cannot be denied, but I am learning still about finish, my skills there are very good but not up to my standards. I take way to long to turn out what I want because I have to sand sand sand. But that is muscle memory developed over many times of doing something and one day I will get there if I keep on working on it.
Bottom line is.......
We are honing a craft, where we go with it is our own path. To most of us the value is in the hobby, a few here have turned it into a career or sideline, but overall the community we have developed is the true value.

 

[JCizzle]

well Mr izzle,
If we agree on that then you see as a hobbyist, the value of our guitars is within the community in monetary value, but the value as an instrument to play is among the musical community. A fellow musician may love the guitar, but if he knows it is your hobby they give you no cred for creating it, to them it is still a parts caster. Even though a boutique shop, with one famous builder, and 2 guys just like us, can get thousands for basically assembling just like us. They can CNC a body and neck, go one step further than us and put in the truss rod, ( a skill we could master after about 2 tries ) do everything else many of us have learned in the hobby using the most skilled guy at this or that in the shop, and they get respect because of a "reputation" we do not have.
I will put the playability of either of my Warmoth builds up against any similar product. And I think come out on the high end of the stick. Quality parts and attention to detail just cannot be denied, but I am learning still about finish, my skills there are very good but not up to my standards. I take way to long to turn out what I want because I have to sand sand sand. But that is muscle memory developed over many times of doing something and one day I will get there if I keep on working on it.
Bottom line is.......
We are honing a craft, where we go with it is our own path. To most of us the value is in the hobby, a few here have turned it into a career or sideline, but overall the community we have developed is the true value.

I would also like to add that there is inherent value in the process of building a guitar yourself, at whatever level. So far it's helped me realize everything you mentioned above, pricing, the drastically different levels of prices depending on what name is on the headstock, as well as what all goes into a guitar.

 

[Jusatele]

what I have learned the most I think is what goes into a guitar of a low value and one of a high value as in detail work and setup. I now understand so much more than I once did.

 

[MSP]

I'll also say that of the hundreds of Gibsons I've played, only a small minority have really had actual, objective flaws (of particular note are the Axcess guitars - of the three I've tried, all of them had the Floyd installed very poorly). The vast majority of the ''bad'' ones were simply set up poorly, or at their core simply weren't a fitting spec for me. But when you find the one that's right for you, absolutely nothing will beat it.

How odd.  My experience differs considerably.  I've been stung from Gibson before and will never, ever purchase another one, unless the company makes some drastic changes.  I've also played many Gibsons without buying them, too, and been very disappointed in the quality of the guitars.  Quite a large percentage of the ones I've seen in the past ten or so years have been disappointing to me.  I've seen guitars that won't stay in tune no matter what (not a setup issue, but crappy tuners), "bookmatched" tops that look like a bad Photoshop mix 'n' match, "figured" tops that aren't, glue drips, finish flaws, and uneven frets. 

These days there are some awesome guitars being made by small companies and luthiers.  Were I to buy a pre-assembled guitar again I'd definitely go with one of those (resale is not a huge deal for me).  I actually own one at the moment and have played a few others.  There are some amazing little-known guitar-makers out there.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

well Mr izzle,
If we agree on that then you see as a hobbyist, the value of our guitars is within the community in monetary value, but the value as an instrument to play is among the musical community. A fellow musician may love the guitar, but if he knows it is your hobby they give you no cred for creating it, to them it is still a parts caster. Even though a boutique shop, with one famous builder, and 2 guys just like us, can get thousands for basically assembling just like us. They can CNC a body and neck, go one step further than us and put in the truss rod, ( a skill we could master after about 2 tries ) do everything else many of us have learned in the hobby using the most skilled guy at this or that in the shop, and they get respect because of a "reputation" we do not have.
I will put the playability of either of my Warmoth builds up against any similar product. And I think come out on the high end of the stick. Quality parts and attention to detail just cannot be denied, but I am learning still about finish, my skills there are very good but not up to my standards. I take way to long to turn out what I want because I have to sand sand sand. But that is muscle memory developed over many times of doing something and one day I will get there if I keep on working on it.
Bottom line is.......
We are honing a craft, where we go with it is our own path. To most of us the value is in the hobby, a few here have turned it into a career or sideline, but overall the community we have developed is the true value.

Allow me to get in on this challenge of putting my Warmoth up against any major brand as well!  

I have a USA Jackson and while it's an awesome guitar, it doesn't even come close to my Warmoth.  That being said, it doesn't changes the fact that I still want a Custom Shop Warrior.

 

[Johnny]

As far as Warmoth, the quality is in the builders hands, I bet for every uber Warmoth there are 20 junk builds and that is why you can never get our money back on one.

I'm sure you're right about the junk builds, but it's a little surprising.  I'm guessing a lot of people get either over ambitious or careless with their build.  My first (and only so far) was a Strat with EMG-SAs.  I screwed it together, plugged in some wires and did some setup and the thing plays great and looks wonderful.  It was not difficult.  All it takes is some research, a little care and some patience.  After you invest all the money in parts, you would think anyone building a guitar would be inclined to, at least, do those things.

Oh, and I'm not even claiming that I did anywhere near as good a job on the build as many of the others around here.  My only point is that a moderate amount of skill can yeild an extremely nice instrument.