In praise of the Friedman Smallbox

[jay4321]

On the buying Marshall note, does anyone know anything about the SV20H amp? I am thinking of buying one as I am enjoying it in my Fractal modeler.

Not sure if this helps you months later, but I thought it was a very good amp with the right character but there was just some oomph missing. I went into a few different cabs with it and thought it sounded best through a used 4x12 ENGL they had at the shop. There was just something missing for me at 20w after too many years with the old ones. Had it been an $800 amp I'd probably have bought it though.

Honestly I would stick to the Fractal. I let go of my Axe 3 after a while because I can't seem to get away from my amps and pedals, but had zero complaints with the 3. No doubt in my mind I could have made it work but I already have everything I really needed without it. I spent too much time in menus dicking around. Even then I bet it's not the last Fractal box I wind up owning.

 

[Ozopart]

Not sure if this helps you months later, but I thought it was a very good amp with the right character but there was just some oomph missing. I went into a few different cabs with it and thought it sounded best through a used 4x12 ENGL they had at the shop. There was just something missing for me at 20w after too many years with the old ones. Had it been an $800 amp I'd probably have bought it though.

Honestly I would stick to the Fractal. I let go of my Axe 3 after a while because I can't seem to get away from my amps and pedals, but had zero complaints with the 3. No doubt in my mind I could have made it work but I already have everything I really needed without it. I spent too much time in menus dicking around. Even then I bet it's not the last Fractal box I wind up owning.

It turned out that the amp they advertised was a bait and switch. It wasn't available at the price advertised, but of course you could by something else!
I definitely want an AXE but am waiting for the next major release, which could be tomorrow or years from now. For now I am fine with my FM3.
The Friedman IR-X that you mentioned looks really interesting. Are you still happy with it? If so, would it work well as a pedal board addition to my Blues Jr.? I want to upgrade from the Blues Jr. as I only bought it during the pandemic as it was one of the few reasonably priced tube amps that was in stock.
Anyway, no worries on the late posting.

 

[TBurst Std]

While some call me a Fractal fan boy (yes I've had them for over a decade and had a I, II and currently a III), I got to say the Helix LT is for live performance purposes, at least 90% of the way there, and at a much lower price point. My 2 Helix LTs I got for less than an AXE III and FC12 (not including the price of plus exp pedal).

It helps it is the backline at a number of venues I play at. I loaded my patches on them. Makes load ins/outs quick and easy.
I got 2 for myself, One in my office/studio the other I keep in my truck for gigs as needed. A lot of them, I just bring my guitar and in-ears, plug in, and I am good to go.

Honestly, the Fractal hasn't been to a gig in about half a year unless I was using a hybrid guitar and feeding both piezo and mag sounds at the same time through parallel streams (read as rarely). The Helix can't do that. It's a walk in the park for the Fractal.

 

[TBurst Std]

Not sure if this helps you months later, but I thought it was a very good amp with the right character but there was just some oomph missing. I went into a few different cabs with it and thought it sounded best through a used 4x12 ENGL they had at the shop. There was just something missing for me at 20w after too many years with the old ones. Had it been an $800 amp I'd probably have bought it though.

Honestly I would stick to the Fractal. I let go of my Axe 3 after a while because I can't seem to get away from my amps and pedals, but had zero complaints with the 3. No doubt in my mind I could have made it work but I already have everything I really needed without it. I spent too much time in menus dicking around. Even then I bet it's not the last Fractal box I wind up owning.

Don't dick around in menus, Find a basic patch you like, then work off of that.

I have created so many patches from a freebie Fractal offers from Pete Thorn. I think it was #3 in his list. That's was the starting point for 90% of my patches. I changed the amp and cabs. Dialed to taste. Then I replicate them enough times to cover a setlist. I pre-program tempos and initial states for each one (I do the same with the Helix).

If I am crashing out a song, and the next song starts with a melody/lick/lead, i don;t want to have to worry about hitting tap tempo. I just go to the next patch and play with confidence that everything is where it needs to be and all time based effects are already correct. It takes all of a whopping 1-2 minutes to do before each gig/set.

When you are lazy, you find easier ways to do things. When you are also paid, you find more effiecient ways to do things.

 

[alexreinhold]

I am generally with Mark but I differ in so far as I do have a thing for amp-in-the-room. The way I go about it:
Tube amp: rehearsal room, bedroom
Kemper: studio, gig

Oh and FWIW @aarontunes I recently got the PRS MT15. What a beast... I would love to compare it head to head against the Friedman.

 

[TBurst Std]

I am generally with Mark but I differ in so far as I do have a thing for amp-in-the-room.

The thing is, unless you’re over 60, you’ve probably not ever heard amp in the room from a professional guitarist.

I can think of only 1 concert I’ve been to where the guitarist wasn’t miced and in the FOH. Nugent back in 79. Even Skynyrd was miced and in FOH in 77 when I saw them 2 days before the plane crash.

The impact of a mic is tremendous on tone.

 

[alexreinhold]

I can think of only 1 concert I’ve been to where the guitarist wasn’t miced and in the FOH. Nugent back in 79. Even Skynyrd was miced and in FOH in 77 when I saw them 2 days before the plane crash.

now that is crazy! Sounds like an epic concert experience.

What I mean though is that unique feeling you get from standing in front of a speaker. It's not gonna be the same if you play through monitors. I also don't really "feel" it when I play through FRFR. Hence, I settled for old school 4x12 speakers (mic'd of course) when playing live...

 

[TBurst Std]

You feel it at a concert. That’s all PA (FRFR).

You need more dbs LOL

 

[alexreinhold]

You feel it at a concert. That’s all PA (FRFR).

You need more dbs LOL

 

[jay4321]

I thought the Fractal stuff had fine and usable patches stock, where the Helix stuff not so much and I'd build from scratch, but either would eventually get something I could work with. That said I'm definitely happier with the result from my traditional setup, especially ITR provided you can pump enough to get the cabinet speakers moving. No patches to download, no firmware updates to adjust around, no IRs. Channels dialed in and good to go.

I still use some combo of a J48, IR-X, and Helix Native when I'm looking to keep it simple and work ideas out, and of course keep my raw tracks, but I'm still always on with the main rig unless it's late at night. That's always my starting point and what I try to dial to, even if I'm never going to quite get that when I eventually record the cab no matter how many times I move mics around. My new neighbor is a drummer with a nice collection of mics and definitely plan on trying a few of those out, I only own a couple SM57s and some pencil mics for the acoustic.

If I were still doing gigs today and building around that, and I'm the one carrying it, toss all of the above out the window. I'd probably go with something like an FM3, EV-1 & one or two specific pedals added if I had to choose right this moment, and straight to FOH. A Helix or LT would work too but I lean Fractal a little bit and the 3 switches on the FM3 should be just enough for any setlist I'd be likely to play. I wouldn't hate it if they made an FM9 with a rocker pedal built in though. And by the time someone reads this there will probably be another good one that hits the market.

Speaking of, I still have an EV-1 and am using it as a volume pedal.

 

[jay4321]

The Friedman IR-X that you mentioned looks really interesting. Are you still happy with it? If so, would it work well as a pedal board addition to my Blues Jr.? I want to upgrade from the Blues Jr. as I only bought it during the pandemic as it was one of the few reasonably priced tube amps that was in stock.
Anyway, no worries on the late posting.

I love the IR-X but first you have to like the Plexi/BE channel sounds to begin with, otherwise there are options that get you a ton more tones (and effects). I don't know about the blues JR now, the only Fender I have left is a kickaround HRD IV but it has a loop. I definitely prefer going into the loop of a bigger amp and cab, and to some lesser degree a powerstage into a cab, and think it's great as a DI thing but again that's only if that's the primary sound you want. If it isn't, it's just a pretty limited box for $500. I would say best suited for someone who is looking for that plexi sound and not getting anywhere via overhyped pedals.

Honestly I wonder how many folks know what a plexi sounds like anymore let alone a good one. I'm not going to put the IR-X quite there but it's very good for sure, if you keep in mind that's it's a preamp only. I would say it like this: used in the loop of the BE-50, it doesn't sound cheaper or lower quality relative to the normal channels, it sounds like a 3rd channel. On the BE side that's a little different and I didn't get heavy into A/B but it's at least respectable, but it's all about the plexi side.

For some context my main amp was a Mesa so this was useful in conjunction with that, where a lot of overhyped pedal solutions fell short. It's a pretty beefy box when heard through a good power amp and cab. I just wanted to add more channels of a more Marshall/Freidman flavor since that's what I come from without buying another amp head. Of course I did that anyway but honestly I didn't fully appreciate the Freidman stuff until I dedicated a weekend to going out and checking them out.

There was actually an out of production amp called the Buxom Betty which was hands down one of the nicest clean headroom amps I've ever plugging into (and that's a lot of amps at this point), but limited and very expensive. A clean-only amp is something I did a lot of ways for a long time but I couldn't justify it. Somewhere thought I caught that the Be-50 used the clean circuit from that which led me off and next thing I know I've got another expensive amp. The IR-X doesn't do that, it's like a plexi channel and a BE channel each with an adjustable boost, but both are very good. What it does into a blues JR I don't know and I haven't even put it front the preamp channel of an amp.

My nephew follows all the YouTube guys, I get 3 texts a week minimum, one I saw were mostly direct in and they sound great that way but if you can get to a store and try one I'd do that and preferably through your amp model.

 

[Ozopart]

I love the IR-X but first you have to like the Plexi/BE channel sounds to begin with, otherwise there are options that get you a ton more tones (and effects). I don't know about the blues JR now, the only Fender I have left is a kickaround HRD IV but it has a loop. I definitely prefer going into the loop of a bigger amp and cab, and to some lesser degree a powerstage into a cab, and think it's great as a DI thing but again that's only if that's the primary sound you want. If it isn't, it's just a pretty limited box for $500. I would say best suited for someone who is looking for that plexi sound and not getting anywhere via overhyped pedals.

Honestly I wonder how many folks know what a plexi sounds like anymore let alone a good one. I'm not going to put the IR-X quite there but it's very good for sure, if you keep in mind that's it's a preamp only. I would say it like this: used in the loop of the BE-50, it doesn't sound cheaper or lower quality relative to the normal channels, it sounds like a 3rd channel. On the BE side that's a little different and I didn't get heavy into A/B but it's at least respectable, but it's all about the plexi side.

For some context my main amp was a Mesa so this was useful in conjunction with that, where a lot of overhyped pedal solutions fell short. It's a pretty beefy box when heard through a good power amp and cab. I just wanted to add more channels of a more Marshall/Freidman flavor since that's what I come from without buying another amp head. Of course I did that anyway but honestly I didn't fully appreciate the Freidman stuff until I dedicated a weekend to going out and checking them out.

There was actually an out of production amp called the Buxom Betty which was hands down one of the nicest clean headroom amps I've ever plugging into (and that's a lot of amps at this point), but limited and very expensive. A clean-only amp is something I did a lot of ways for a long time but I couldn't justify it. Somewhere thought I caught that the Be-50 used the clean circuit from that which led me off and next thing I know I've got another expensive amp. The IR-X doesn't do that, it's like a plexi channel and a BE channel each with an adjustable boost, but both are very good. What it does into a blues JR I don't know and I haven't even put it front the preamp channel of an amp.

My nephew follows all the YouTube guys, I get 3 texts a week minimum, one I saw were mostly direct in and they sound great that way but if you can get to a store and try one I'd do that and preferably through your amp model.

Thanks for all of this great information. I of course know a lot of the music made with Marshall Plexi amps, but am not certain of what is meant in modern terms when someone says "plexi sound". If it is loud with overdrive, maybe distorted, ... that would not be a bad thing, but it isn't the primary sound I am looking for. I do play all sorts of stuff from jazz to clean to distorted/crunchy, but I prefer softer tones like Paul Kossof from Free on songs like Fire and Water, and Oh I Wept, and David Grissom (for example on Leveland by James McMurtry). I definitely don't like or play metal. The closest I come to metal is old Black Sabbath, and to me that is more Rock, and not the heavy metal, shredding stuff I hear a lot of on the web.
As to the Blues Jr., it doesn't have an effects loop. I am thinking the IR-X probably isn't a useful addition to my setup at this point.
Thanks again for the response.

 

[TBurst Std]

That’s well said. The Plexi sound on the 60s is not that overdriven. That’s pedal goosing it further. Think Allman Bros LAFE. That’s a dimes Plexi with a LP into it.

 

[TBurst Std]

For Helix vs AXE. You can do unload free patches for both. For the Helix, Grabbed a set of them from someone in my main genre. 1 of them was perfect for a launching point for a main patch. Cost =0. Time = 10 minutes

 

[TBurst Std]

provided you can pump enough to get the cabinet speakers moving.

That’s where I differ. Forget cabinets. Get a good IR and go FOH. You mentioned different mic locations, that’s great. You also mentioned also a Shure 57. A 57 or 58 is the last thing I would use (call me a snob). But to me that’s like choosing to eat Spam instead of dying of hunger.

Refer back to my previous post for what I prefer. Cabinets is more work that nots needed.

I challenge anyone who has quality amp/cabs/mics and/vs modeler/IR/FRFR to do the challenge of amp in room.

I’ve done this a number of times (8 as I recall). 5 their FRFR were near range 5-6inch monitors. Compare apples to apples.

Use 12” FRFRs with lots of power.

The other 3, oddly when they were playing their amp rig they were 20db louder. Once I adjusted their FRFR ( and in 1 case his modeler as it was set WELL below unity), The difference of the legendary ‘amp in room’ went away like a fart in the wind.

 

[jay4321]

We differ a lot! I've had that arrangement, first I needed a Fryette because a simple PS wasn't good enough, fine probably some room to improve over a simple $400 box like that. Then I needed the Atomic CLRs which I think Fractal themselves recommended me. Also fine, my 8" JBLs are just basic monitors. A fine setup but no question which I prefer, excepting the stereo aspect which is always some fun. I will accept your challenge if you're anywhere near the DE area.

That's not to say Fractal et al don't make a great product and FRFRs aren't good etc,, but they're not there yet for an ITR match You may think so if it's been a while, but then there will be another update or the Axe FX 4 that's "even closer" or "more realistic."

[MOD EDIT}

 

[TBurst Std]

Don't know if 8" JBL srudio monitors compare to an amp cab unless youre playing a fender champ.

My FRFRs are 12" and each can put out 132 dbs. (Normally I just use 1 at a time, but if needed )
Now that's something to compare to a tube amp and cab.

The FRFRs are just for home use largely. 99.9% of my gigs have a FOH. I just plug my rig into it.
No fuss, no hassle. Through the IRs I have, I have the speakers, mics and mic positions I desire.

I will admit I am a snob. But I was one when I was analog.What I got rid of was a Cornell custom PLexi, and 69 Bandmaster Reverb, and a Fawn AC30, all with appropriate cabs. Equally expensive was my assortment of Neumann, Telekuken, Mojave, Beyerdynamic, etc mics and their related stands. Not to mention 2 pedal boards.

Easily funded my initial Fractal and FRFR purchase and left me cash for a vacation.

My point is, you don't have to spend that much. One of my Helix LT units I got used for $600.

In a live situation, its is 90% of the way there as a Fractal or Kemper.

And no need for me to be there for the challenge. Lots of good db measurement apps available for smart phones (I use SPL Meter and its close enough to a calibrated pro db meter).

Measure your db at a specific distance (say 1 ft) on your amp/cab. Now make sure your modeler/FRFR is at the same level.

Again this is 99.9% for home use. I want to simulate at home what I will hear FOH at a gig.

 

[TBurst Std]

If they are similar speaker cone sizes, you are pushing the same dbs, and your IRs are the same cabinet,mic/mic position, I dare to say any difference you sense is Not material. It will not be realized in the FOH.

Most often when I have had people do this challenge what was clouding them was:

1. Comparisons were not equal (I described that above).
2. They wanted the visual stimulation of playing a cabinet (of their fav player at times)
3. They don't even play live or consider FOH sound (if you play live, have you ever listened to a professional recording (NOT SMART PHONE or conveyed via YOUTUBE) of your FOH tone in the mix? Most people are surprised.) Instead of playing live, they stay at home and play with theirselves.

[MOD EDIT]

 

[TBurst Std]

And to add, I LOVE tube amps and cabs. I was an analog snob as at that time is was my primary income source. ( had even nicer amps before those I referenced being sold. (Vintage JTM 45, Mesa MKII+, 66 Fender Deluxe). Someone had a difficult conversation with me (much as I am having with you), that got me past that and I did the imperical test. Yep, in FOH it works.

Now my load in/load out time is decreased by 1-2 hours but I'm making the same bank. My time to get the FOH tone I desire is decreased .5-1 hours but I'm making the same bank. So on average, if I walk into a new venue, for me to load in/get my FOH tone/load out is decreased 1.5-3 hours and I am making the same bank, thats an increase to the equivalent hourly rate of pay.

The Helix is even easier (less gear) than the Fractal to load in/out. I have gigs where if you can tear down in 45 seconds, do it, otherwise you have to wait .75 hours. I had 4 of those last week. That's a 3 hour saving.

Let's use my last week as an example, I got more predictable, consistent tone AND SAVED 9 hours in load in/out and FOH tone adjustments over using my previous analog rig. If you are a paid musician or a financial analyst (which I am both) you pay attention to that.

 

[jay4321]

The JBLs are what they are the Atomics were for sure another class, the Fryette over the seymour unit was better, but again other than some fun stereo options were =/= to amp/cab in the room. Not saying they were bad, unusable, harder, too expensive etc just not the same thing. More versatile and controllable maybe but that's another topic.

A cab in the room definitely responds by getting the volume to get the speaker moving is what I understood you to be taking issue with since that's the part you quoted, are we moving this challenge to something else now? Because as stated there's definitely no question that my main cab is not reacting the same at different volume levels from the power amp even with the preamp unchanging, where using one the the heads you could at least make an argument (correctly) that the preamp is influencing things. The cab I used the most is a good but very common Mesa horizonal 2x12 with no magical physics-denying properties that I'm aware of, probably hasn't even been two weeks since I've done that with the IR-X and powerstage. I have to be misunderstanding you there's no way that you would think otherwise.

We seem to be getting now toward what this all sounds like at FOH? Here' I'll just repost what you partially quoted:

That said I'm definitely happier with the result from my traditional setup, especially ITR provided you can pump enough to get the cabinet speakers moving.

That's at some distance from my take on what reaches FOH or the audience, mostly addressed in the post prior. ITR is in the room, not what it sounds like when you mic it up and put it through PAs, that's by definition not ITR anymore