In news that will surprise no one, Gibson has financial woes

[Cagey]

I understand. First thing you think of when looking at a single-cutaway body that's not a Les Paul is: that's not an authentic Les Paul!  Curses! My life is over! I'll never own/play/condone/recommend that miserably deficient POS!

But, there's another - more accurate - way to look at it: it's not a Les Paul.

For some, that's a Good Thing. For others, not so much.

For instance, another way to look at it is that the Les Paul is one of the most uncomfortable production guitars to play ever designed and offered for sale.

On the plus side, its profoundly retarded design gives it some unique characteristics, such as enhanced harmonic response and incredible sustain. Lends itself well to rich "power" chords and singing melody/lead lines.

If only somebody would come up with a similar, but not exactly identical design that did the same thing.

Well, there's the Regal...

 

[lkja8uatt33]

Cagey, I agree with your points. ......I just want Warmoth to be able to resume making the old Gibson bodies and necks again. I don't know if that will eventually become legally possible. 

 

[Cagey]

I don't know either, but I'm not expecting a change any time soon. It's unlikely Gibson will ever cave on that, and if their designs get sold due to liquidation, I wouldn't expect whoever pays for them to just give them away.

 

[stratamania]

A discussion on Gibson.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_Xi9GQ48iY[/youtube]

 

[AirCap]

There's a million knuckleheads on YouTube talking about why Gibson sucks. Who cares?

 

[stratamania]

There's a million knuckleheads on YouTube talking about why Gibson sucks. Who cares?

I don't, particularly because in the end, whatever Gibson's future is it won't be determined by those discussing it. Just posted it to the thread as it seems some are and this one was less about sucking and more about what Gibson could do.

I personally would prefer Gibson, to get a new lease of life who knows possibly under new leadership.

 

[AirCap]

I think we can all agree the problem doesn't truly lie with Gibson, but with Henry. Remove him, get someone who cares, and all will be right with the world.

 

[Cagey]

Nobody who's qualified is gonna care. One of the qualifications for running a business of that size is that you be a sociopath. What's necessary that Henry doesn't have is competency, which is a little harder to come by. Not that sociopathy is common, but in conjunction with competency it's quite rare. It's why CEOs typically get big bucks. They're a rare breed.

 

[Re-Pete]

I've heard that once you french a horn, you can never go back...

I can't quit you!​

There was a band in Australia called Hunters & Collectors who featured a horn section with a french horn. Believe me, these guys were most sweaty grungy pub rock/indie outfit going around the halcyon days of Aussie pub rock. I saw them on their first Australian national tour and afterwards I could only describe their show as a cathartic experience. I, and many others who braved the Manly Vale Pub during a hot summer night, were exhausted.

 

[Re-Pete]

Gibson:
What does anyone do when their debt level is so high it's about to crumble the group of companies?

I'm uneducated in this area of finance. Would my 2c worth help anyone here or at Gibson, probably not. Do I think they got what they deserve? Probably.

When Henry J came to the rescue after years of neglect by Norlin they did reinvigorate the brand. I did buy a 92 Gibson Firebird that was the best electric guitar I have ever owned. It had to be sold to save my ass financially in 1998 or so. A very sad day that it went.

In recent times, I read that the early 90s was a 'good' period to buy a Gibson, their QC was better than most eras and their product was believably priced. I must have been lucky to want a Firebird at that time then.

We've all commented in the past about the plain stupid ideas that have come out of the Gibson factory, and it is obvious that while they are trying new ideas, they were NOT listening to guitar players. I do not know any guitar player who thinks a digital electronics circuit inside an otherwise great playing guitar makes sense. Even the auto tuners had to go through several incarnations before it got the package right & guitar players are LOATHE to being guinea pigs.  Reverse Flying V? Come on, who was the bright spark who thought that was a decent idea?

What I think Gibson Group of Companies needs to do is declare Chapter 11. Put a stop to the debt accrual. Then go about assessing each marque brand they own and realistically value it. Rationalise Product lines within those brands. DON'T compete with yourself. I doubt it will survive into the future as a groupo of companies. I suspect a syndicate of guitar aficionados will buy the Gibson/Epiphone brands.

In the Gibson line, pare down the models to maybe only 3 production models & one Custom Shop. Les Paul Junior, Standard & Custom, then a Historic CS model.  Firebird 1,3,5 & CS 7. Make the bloody guitars the very best they can in a production line. Let Epiphone do what they need to do to provide the group with $$. China, Indonesia, make them good models (it can be achieved) and make them available ONLINE. Review the distributor network. Is it necessary in modern era? Wholesale direct to retailers (Gibson line) internationally.

 

[mayfly]

Nobody who's qualified is gonna care. One of the qualifications for running a business of that size is that you be a sociopath. What's necessary that Henry doesn't have is competency, which is a little harder to come by. Not that sociopathy is common, but in conjunction with competency it's quite rare. It's why CEOs typically get big bucks. They're a rare breed.

Maybe folks could get sociopath training... wait!  That's Business School!!!

 

 

[new-killer-star]

I have an early 90s LP and a 2015 LP. Hands down QC on the new one is better, the inlays and frets are simply not so great on my Gem series, and they are pretty darn good on the new one.

However, I play the old one and the new one just sits there.

Also I don’t want / need warmoth to bring back *all* the old shapes just the ones I want like the L5s. Regardless of what happens it seems doubtful, as Cagey said if ownership  changes they are likely going to protect the core guitar business and I can’t see the allowing copies all of a sudden when they don’t need to.

And I suspect Warmoth will be really conservative in this respect as well, there just can’t be enough of us purchasing these to make it worth the litigation risk.

 

[civilaggie06]

Just saw this post from an interview with the CEO of Gibson:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/gibson_ceo_blames_guitar_stores_for_financial_struggles.html

 

[AirCap]

Someone should tell Henry that denial is not a river in Egypt.

 

[Cagey]

He's right that music stores are generally uncomfortable places, and rarely have competent staff. I'm also sure the stores are concerned about online sales. They should be. They rarely have anything to offer other than display of physical goods, and many of those goods don't need to be displayed or fondled.

Guitars and other instruments I can understand why somebody might want to play them prior to purchase, but that's largely because of companies like Gibson who make such inconsistent products. I could order a Taylor or PRS guitar without sweating all over it, because I'd know what I'm getting. hell, I even trust Agile, who doesn't have a single store in the entire country. I can get pseudo Les Paul from them for 1/10th the price of a Gibson and sight-unseen, I know I'll be getting a better instrument than Gibson can provide.

Special effects and amplifiers don't need to be fondled so much, but they do need to be heard in real life.

So, maybe the stores do need a redesign. Make 'em comfy. Get rid of all the gimcrackery. You can buy all that crap online or order it at a kiosk in store. Put in a bunch of private sound rooms, and put all the amps/bottoms on casters or platforms that make 'em mobile so people can check things out without being bothered or bothering others. Have boxes of "public" cables, direct boxes, switches, etc. ready to connect things up. Have an instrument display room that's like a "VIP" room, where you can only go in if accompanied by a sales hore, or have bouncers in a "display only" room to enforce the "no touch" rule. Make manufacturers supply gear for display/trial if they want to sell their stuff, with the understanding they'll be on the hook for their gear's setup/maintenance. Hire competent sales staff and pay annual bonuses based on business success instead of minimum wage + monthly commissions based on volume. Rather than leave setup and repair to kids who know where the strings and hammers are kept, lease space to private techs/luthiers for setup/repair, like grocery stores do with banks and airports do with bars/restaurants. It's a specialized thing, leave it to specialists who will live or die on their competency.

None of that will help Gibson much, but it's a good idea in general.

 

[Sovereign_13]

Definitely agreed on the "need competent sales staff".  Really, that's true of any retail business - invest at least a little in your employees' qualifications and well-being and you'll get it back tenfold.  Employees don't have to be pros, but they should be familiar with what they have available.  Especially when you've got as much variety within one product as guitars and amps.

I used to work for Home Depot, and while those big-box hardware stores can be very hit-or-miss on how competent their floor associates are, Home Depot at least tries a little.  I got put in flooring and had a two-week crash course in the different types of flooring and installation, plus monthly product updates.  Not everyone was a pro, but everyone had at least a basic grasp of their department.

That's what guitar stores need instead of sales-people.  People who know what's new, what's good, and can pick out a few instruments or accessories based on a rough description by an overwhelmed shopper.  I know I'd feel a lot better about going to Guitar Mart if I could at least trust the employees to know at least as much as I do.

 

[AirCap]

Henry needs to STHU. He's talking himself right out of his job.

https://www.musicradar.com/news/gibson-ceo-henry-juszkiewicz-guitars-from-the-50s-are-what-the-purists-want-but-we-have-to-have-something-new-and-exciting

 

[Cagey]

Yeah, no kidding. He's basically saying "to hell with what people want, we need something new!" I don't know who this "we" is. Maybe he has a mouse in his pocket. Perhaps he thinks they need something new because what they've been doing is resulting in lower unit sales. If he's reading the forums like he claims he is, he can't help but notice the massive pushback against Gibson's quality standards and pricing levels. That's what's keeping his numbers down, not the need for something different.

 

[Sovereign_13]

I've never been able to figure out why companies do this.  Sure, you want to expand your customer base, but you don't expand your customer base by flipping the bird to the dedicated customers.  New and different isn't always a bad thing, but new and different at the expense of your core business is a great way to alienate the people who already put stock in your brand and dollars in your pocket.  You're sacrificing guaranteed revenue on a hope that people will buy into your "lifestyle brand" BS.

 

[Cagey]

It's the dreaded front office. You get a bunch a guys with degrees in business management, sales/marketing and accounting together, and with no experience in or concept of the business at hand will, given enough meetings, golf, booze and titty bars, come up with myriad plans to make it all much, much better. They're always convinced those uneducated idiots who created the business in the first place had no idea what they were doing and are lucky they're not trying to live on cat food.