I need to vent...

[Volitions Advocate]

I don't really care if this takes off in a political thread or not, but I'm pretty angry right now and I need to let it out somewhere.

A man was murdered in my hometown friday night.  I never knew him personally as a friend but he was a great friend and a giant of a person to a great deal of my closest friends.

He was walking home from a  late night party with his girlfriend and her younger sister when they were jumped by 6 high school kids strung out on meth.  They stabbed him 3 times in the back and cut his corotid artery with a shovel.  He died protecting his girlfriend and pretty much fell on top of her and bled to death.

If some people think that legalizing illicit drugs is the best way to combat their trafficking......  well what can I say about that.  It doesn't matter who the drugs come from, they're illegal for a reason.

 

[Lucky #7]

It's a difficult issue to discuss when there isn't an emotional event such as this one.  That said, there's more to it than just combating trafficking.  First, I don't know of a great deal of people arguing for the complete legalization of all illicit drugs for that very reason.  Some of these drugs are mind altering substances that make you a threat to anyone around you.  Now, with something like marijuana, you're talking about something that just isn't a great deal different than drinking.  It doesn't make much sense to me that it is illegal and certainly not that people are dying purchasing and smuggling it. 

For the others, the arguments I've heard have more to do with making them cheaper so that people that are taking them aren't murdering and robbing others to get the hundreds and hundreds of dollars needed to support their habit.  Certainly people do terrible things on drugs, but the argument for their legalization is a lot more nuanced than it may seem.  There's also the argument that you could decrease use by making it less of a taboo.  I do think there is some validity to the argument that we are spending billions and billions of dollars fighting a war that is not being won.

I'm sorry for the loss of this man.  He sounds like a hell of a guy and a brave one at that. 

 

[OzziePete]

I will fess up to having a wild time or two as a younger man with some Mary Jane, but that all stopped before I was 25. I simply realised that it wasn't doing me any good. Took me days to get over it - was worse than alcohol to me.

Very sorry to hear of the man's death Volitions.

Unfortunately, stuff like Meth is very sinister in the way it can make people into psychopaths.

If I am driving in and out of my City (Sydney, Australia) in my bus duties on a  Friday or Saturday night, I am really careful not to get too chatty with passengers as some of them do look affected by some serious stuff and I am concerned if it's Meth they could flip out at one smart ass comment and go off.

The whole drug scene is getting way too deadly, and even in Sydney, the alcohol consumption is going way overboard on weekends too. Binge drinkers are everywhere and they can be just as unpredictable in their responses.

I can't think of any reasonable solution other than to appeal to the individuals before they start getting into that cycle of substance abuse. Once they are on it, particularly Meth, they could be outsiders to society for a good few years before illness gets the better of them or they start trying to withdraw.

I guess if you are a parent you can alert your kids to what the problems are with using substances but I suppose you have to quite sincere about that and quit your Friday night after work drinks too, just to show your kids things are serious. That said, the area in Sydney I drive buses in is very affluent, yet the kids are the most binge drinking mob I have met, and I have no doubt that some of them use other stuff too. So coming from a 'good family upbringing' doesn't mean the kids will try things and get a taste for living fast.

 

[Superlizard]

The solution:

Conceal/carry training & permits and lots of practice at the range.

Because it's you or them.

 

[Volitions Advocate]

There's no such thing as a conceal/carry permit in canada without a great deal of paperwork and a very good reason to need it.  even then there are laws about the amount of rounds that can be in the magazine. Pistols are pretty restricted.

Thing is this happened in my home town.  B.F. Alberta pop. 2000 .  You shouldn't need to carry in a town like that.

 

[Lucky #7]

You shouldn't need to carry anywhere, but that's not the world we live in.  I don't know if it would have helped here, but restricting weapons so severely just insures that only criminals have them. 

 

[DangerousR6]

The solution:

Conceal/carry training & permits and lots of practice at the range.

Because it's you or them.

You shouldn't need to carry anywhere, but that's not the world we live in.  I don't know if it would have helped here, but restricting weapons so severely just insures that only criminals have them. 

Amen.....That's why I wear one too!!! :icon_thumright:

 

[Volitions Advocate]

You shouldn't need to carry anywhere, but that's not the world we live in.  I don't know if it would have helped here, but restricting weapons so severely just insures that only criminals have them. 

Thats what we've been saying to Ottawa for years.

 

[dbw]

The solution:

Conceal/carry training & permits and lots of practice at the range.

Because it's you or them.

You or who?

 

[Superlizard]

There's no such thing as a conceal/carry permit in canada without a great deal of paperwork and a very good reason to need it.  even then there are laws about the amount of rounds that can be in the magazine. Pistols are pretty restricted.

That's what you get when you live in a socialist nation: your right to protect yourself/home/family is severely restricted by the government.

The gov't is assumed to "know best", and the people willingly accept the chains of control placed upon them.

 

[Superlizard]

The solution:

Conceal/carry training & permits and lots of practice at the range.

Because it's you or them.

You or who?

Scum.  (is who)

Anyone who is willing to kill someone just to get more $$$ for their meth fix deserves to be put 6ft into the ground.

By making such a choice, they revoked their priviledge to live.

 

[Volitions Advocate]

I never attribute it to socialism.

It doesn't cost me 2000 dollars for an X-ray and I'm very thankful for that.

This particular problem lies in a concept we call "western alienation" in Canada (i promise I'm not picking on you mayfly)

I'm hardly any kind of an activist, and I have my ideals but I'm not going to be the guy wearing the anarchy shirt.

 

[mayfly]

This particular problem lies in a concept we call "western alienation" in Canada (i promise I'm not picking on you mayfly)

No problem - I'm from Edmonton.

... Which could be just as bad from your POV  ccasion14:

 

[OzziePete]

The solution:

Conceal/carry training & permits and lots of practice at the range.

Because it's you or them.

Sorry Superlizard, that's a no-go for bus drivers in Australia and most other people too, except for Law Enforcement and security people while they are work.

In the seated position looking forward you are still prone to attacks from the side that can hit you before you know it (in the older buses that have no plexi sheild), and the close confines of the drivers cabins I work in make it very hard to draw if I was wearing a side holster, and I doubt I could swing my arm out wide enough if I was wearing a shoulder holster. I carried a revolver in Law Enforcement for 12.5 years up til 2002, and I can tell you, getting the draw on someone is not at all easy. I did plenty of simulations at that workplace and it is quite a shock to see how quick an offender can get into your face before you are even half drawn from a side holster.

And besides there's the whole 'reasonable force' issue if the bus is stationary and hand brake on and someone just comes at you with fists... blasting them with a revolver at that point isn't justified, as the bus is capable of being safe for everyone on board without you, and the force presented to you by the offender is debatable if it is life threatening.

Capsicum spray is useless as most buses are air conditioned (spray would be circulated throughout the whole interior) and when you open the front door there's usually a gust of air that will swirl around near the driver anyway if it's windy.

The only weapon of any use would be, I guess, a Taser like weapon, but again you have to get it out first before they start hitting you. Pretty hard at such close quarters and no where to retreat to.

And in any case, a City is truly stuffed if it is so bad with violence that even the bus drivers have to carry weapons for protection!

We don't get a lot of attacks on bus drivers, and the areas that most happen in, are areas that are well known to Sydney folks for all the wrong reasons.

I am however, concerned that there are groups of younger people getting smashed with drugs and alcohol each weekend, and all the nightclubs worry about is getting folks away from their immediate area of operation once they get booted from there. We have a Responsible Service of Alcohol policy that's Law in the State of NSW, and nightclubs, pubs and clubs do their best to police it mostly.But we still have the pack of meandering zombies after midnight, the idiots who get all bravo with a few shots of alcohol in them or other stuff, and the vandalism, empty bottles of booze all down streets nearby and the occasional report of violence.

 

[Superlizard]

Sorry Superlizard, that's a no-go for bus drivers in Australia and most other people too, except for Law Enforcement and security people while they are work.

In the seated position looking forward you are still prone to attacks from the side that can hit you before you know it (in the older buses that have no plexi sheild), and the close confines of the drivers cabins I work in make it very hard to draw if I was wearing a side holster, and I doubt I could swing my arm out wide enough if I was wearing a shoulder holster. I carried a revolver in Law Enforcement for 12.5 years up til 2002, and I can tell you, getting the draw on someone is not at all easy. I did plenty of simulations at that workplace and it is quite a shock to see how quick an offender can get into your face before you are even half drawn from a side holster.

And besides there's the whole 'reasonable force' issue if the bus is stationary and hand brake on and someone just comes at you with fists... blasting them with a revolver at that point isn't justified, as the bus is capable of being safe for everyone on board without you, and the force presented to you by the offender is debatable if it is life threatening.

Capsicum spray is useless as most buses are air conditioned (spray would be circulated throughout the whole interior) and when you open the front door there's usually a gust of air that will swirl around near the driver anyway if it's windy.

The only weapon of any use would be, I guess, a Taser like weapon, but again you have to get it out first before they start hitting you. Pretty hard at such close quarters and no where to retreat to.

And in any case, a City is truly stuffed if it is so bad with violence that even the bus drivers have to carry weapons for protection!

We don't get a lot of attacks on bus drivers, and the areas that most happen in, are areas that are well known to Sydney folks for all the wrong reasons.

I am however, concerned that there are groups of younger people getting smashed with drugs and alcohol each weekend, and all the nightclubs worry about is getting folks away from their immediate area of operation once they get booted from there. We have a Responsible Service of Alcohol policy that's Law in the State of NSW, and nightclubs, pubs and clubs do their best to police it mostly.But we still have the pack of meandering zombies after midnight, the idiots who get all bravo with a few shots of alcohol in them or other stuff, and the vandalism, empty bottles of booze all down streets nearby and the occasional report of violence.

Regardless of local laws, I'm sure you'd much prefer having a firearm on hand as opposed to being a helpless, weaponless victim in the face of a life threatening situation... at least you'd have a feckin' chance.

Law Enforcement/security ain't gonna protect yo' ass 24/7, either.

The young people today are soul-less and identity-less.  There's no morals being learned because they are taught that there is no right or wrong; no pride in anything (because that would invariably "offend" someone) etc...  zombies, indeed.  The "new program" has failed miserably.

 

[GoDrex]

The young people today are soul-less and identity-less.  There's no morals being learned because they are taught that there is no right or wrong; no pride in anything (because that would invariably "offend" someone) etc...  zombies, indeed.  The "new program" has failed miserably.

what a load of crap

 

[Kublai]

For as long as people have been people, they have been complaining about the younger generation. We are the same people today that we were thousands of years ago. There have always been decent folks as well as sacks of turds. So, to say that the kids TODAY are soul-less is not necessarily correct. IMO. They always have been. We were. Our folks were. And our g-folks and so on.

 

[kboman]

For as long as people have been people, they have been complaining about the younger generation. We are the same people today that we were thousands of years ago. There have always been decent folks as well as sacks of turds. So, to say that the kids TODAY are soul-less is not necessarily correct. IMO. They always have been. We were. Our folks were. And our g-folks and so on.

+1

And can we please not turn this into another political "discussion"? As has been clearly demonstrated in previous threads, we can't handle it like adults. Very sorry to hear about that guy getting killed over nothing, V.A.

 

[Superlizard]

For as long as people have been people, they have been complaining about the younger generation.

And I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling teenagers.

 

[OzziePete]

Regardless of local laws, I'm sure you'd much prefer having a firearm on hand as opposed to being a helpless, weaponless victim in the face of a life threatening situation... at least you'd have a feckin' chance.

Law Enforcement/security ain't gonna protect yo' ass 24/7, either.

The young people today are soul-less and identity-less.  There's no morals being learned because they are taught that there is no right or wrong; no pride in anything (because that would invariably "offend" someone) etc...  zombies, indeed.  The "new program" has failed miserably.

Superlizard, I've just had to delete a very large rant against what I have highlighted here, but frankly I then realised that if you are someone who genuinely holds those views, no amount of persuasive debate is going to change your views or respect mine either.

Let's just say however, that I have had experience in carrying a weapon as part of my duty in a civil situation, not military, and protected the highest office holders for my country in doing so (and proud to have done so), and to understand the limitations of carrying such weaponry you have to had done so & realised that maybe, one day, you might have to use it. The reality of actually doing that is far worse than most folks puff their chest up about & to dismiss laws as just an inconvenience that you may as well disregard, flies in the face of why you chose to partake in those duties that grants you the right to carry a weapon in public.

IMHO, you simply cannot argue your legal (in your country) right to carry a weapon in one breath, then in the other, disregard the responsibility side of such carriage as a mere inconvenience to overlook when the situation suits you.

Whether I like it or not, I am not allowed , in my country, to carry a revolver in public, concealed or otherwise. To then carry one is irresponsible of me, it is illegal, and it makes a hypocrite out of me for all the years I worked in law enforcement and federal security.