I need new recording software

[Superlizard]

I'm all for boycotting Pro Tools... the fact that you have to have their hardware (proprietary) to
run their software is another fine example of douchebaggery;

As of ProTools version 9 it is not tied to hardware anymore.

Well that's a start.  Although from what I've read, you don't get the "HD" part unless
you go with their hardware.

 

[Superlizard]

You realise that the exact same arguement can be used against buying a Strat (or building a Warmoth) .... when a Squire has 6 strings, 3 pickups, and allows you to play various chords and scales, why invest in something better? 

Using the (we'll call it) "Squier Argument"  :icon_biggrin:  :

What exactly does Pro Tools do better than say, Cubase (the "Squier") to justify the extra dough?

Or even Reaper - when comparing similar functions included in both packages?

(Note I said "better", not "what does it have that product X doesn't?")

I'm just not buying the argument that Pro Tools is the King Daddy of DAWs.

 

[Cagey]

I don't know about ProTools well enough, but is it possible they're the "Microsoft" of that app space? That is, they simply enjoy a large installed base so you have to go along to get along, rather than use what makes more sense?

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Pro Tools does not do anything better than the others listed until you get into larger recording situations.  But, what it does have that the other programs do not is that it is used everywhere.  A session can be picked up and dropped off somewhere else, and off you go.

Neither current version of ProTools 9 (HD or not) requires hardware, besides a dongle.  I have the regular version of ProTools 9 and it works fine with the dongle.  While the dongle can be annoying, it is also required for quite a number of the plugins.  You can debate whether or not plug ins are required, but the fact is that they are also everywhere.

Now, I have Pro Tools because the people that record that I deal with use it.  The extra cost was not great enough to prohibit me from getting it.  The convenience was the primary reason I did get it.  Reading your post, Mr. L, it seems as if you have a bias against it because it is the mainstream option.  Certainly, the options you provide are justified, but you tend to "sneer" at it in you posts as well.
Patrick

 

[Superlizard]

I don't know about ProTools well enough, but is it possible they're the "Microsoft" of that app space? That is, they simply enjoy a large installed base so you have to go along to get along, rather than use what makes more sense?

They're priced out of the "Joe Consumer/Prosumer" range if you go the traditional Pro Tools route with their hardware.

Just the software package (version 9) will run you $599.00 (non-upgrade)... which ain't great, but
not un-obtainium.

They are, however, a standard in the "professional" arena (I have my own theories as to why).

And I'm sure they have plenty of annoying sales reps shilling their wares out there.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I don't know about ProTools well enough, but is it possible they're the "Microsoft" of that app space? That is, they simply enjoy a large installed base so you have to go along to get along, rather than use what makes more sense?

No, actually it is not that way at all.  The only hardware that required ProTools, is Avid's, or Digidesigns.  The rest that is out there, from the Uber Expensive gear to the stuff that is crappier than Avid's, hard to believe that there is but that is another storm for another day, can all be used with pretty much any of the software packages.  So you are not locked in.  And the other software works just fine.
Patrick

 

[AndyG]

What exactly does Pro Tools do better than say, Cubase (the "Squier") to justify the extra dough?

Patrick is correct ... ProTools doesn't necessarily do anything "better", but based on workflow, it does things very efficiently.

As far as the hardware goes, it comes down to that elusive quality of sound.  I think that the HD hardware sounds really good, and even the consumer hardware has better than decent A/D converters.  Obviously that is not an issue if you record most of your music via MIDI, but anything that's mic'ed up, you will hear a difference.  Also, latency is not an issue, and some of the software features (such as elastic time and elastic pitch) can give you a very creative environment. 
Again, ProTools is not for everyone.  But I like it, I use it, and will continue to for years to come.

 

[Superlizard]

Pro Tools does not do anything better than the others listed until you get into larger recording situations.  But, what it does have that the other programs do not is that it is used everywhere.  A session can be picked up and dropped off somewhere else, and off you go.

I can see the obvious sense that a Pro Tools *session* cannot be swapped between software products.

But at the same token, I'm quite sure you could not swap a Cubase session between software products, either.

Not only that, can you not import/export .mp3, .wav. etc with Pro Tools?

Therefore it would appear to not be quite as "exclusive" as some of you are making it out to be.

but you tend to "sneer" at it in you posts as well.

Let me guess - you were on the software dev team of Pro Tools; did thousands of hours of coding and went through
thousands of cases of Mountain Dew and potato chips... and are offended that I don't appreciate all your hard work and effort...?  :laughing7:

If I think something's cool, I think it's cool.  If I think something sucks, I think it sucks - it's that simple, and no, I'm not
making fun of your mama in the process.

 

[Superlizard]

A/D converters. 

Now that right there is the only reason I would justify plunking down lots more $$$ on
one DAW package vs. another.  Then again, that would be talking hardware, not software.

(that is of course assuming the respective GUI isn't some clunky, brain-addled contraption - most aren't)

Oddly (or ironically) enough, the AD converters I use in my E-MU 1820m are the same (or were the same;
product is about 6 years old now) as the Pro Tools HD systems:

Mastering grade 24-bit/192kHz converters - the same A/D converters used in Digidesign's flagship ProTools HD 192 I/O Interface delivering an amazing 120dB signal-to-noise ratio

 

[Patrick from Davis]

Of course you can bounce the track to a file, that is not what makes it useful as a production tool.  It is your ultimate goal, but it is an oversimplification.  You can copy and paste your documents in to vi, but it is not quite the same as Word.

Pro Tools does not do anything better than the others listed until you get into larger recording situations.  But, what it does have that the other programs do not is that it is used everywhere.  A session can be picked up and dropped off somewhere else, and off you go.

I can see the obvious sense that a Pro Tools *session* cannot be swapped between software products.

But at the same token, I'm quite sure you could not swap a Cubase session between software products, either.

Not only that, can you not import/export .mp3, .wav. etc with Pro Tools?

Therefore it would appear to not be quite as "exclusive" as some of you are making it out to be.

Huh?  Where did I say it was exclusive?  It is useful.

but you tend to "sneer" at it in you posts as well.

Let me guess - you were on the software dev team of Pro Tools; did thousands of hours of coding and went through
thousands of cases of Mountain Dew and potato chips... and are offended that I don't appreciate all your hard work and effort...?  :laughing7:

If I think something's cool, I think it's cool.  If I think something sucks, I think it sucks - it's that simple, and no, I'm not
making fun of your mama in the process.

Mr. L, quite honestly, you are not making fun of my mother.  But you do act like an ass and provoke responses in you sanctimonious manner.  I don't drink Mountain Dew, or eat Potato Chips, but thanks for stereotyping software designers.  Why should I take your comments about DAW's seriously when you behave terribly if someone challenges your position?  It has truth, as far as I can tell, but what is the point being so snarky?  In this thread, back a ways, I mentioned quite clearly that there were options that might be better suited to the original posters needs than ProTools.

As far as A/D converters go, Avid's have not really garnered much of a following with Engineers.  If Black Lion were to mod them, OK.  But there are several others that are much better.  And then the issue of the word clock comes in, and you can get marvelous results from other gear.  I would avoid Avid for gear.
Patrick

 

[Superlizard]

But you do act like an ass and provoke responses in you sanctimonious manner.

Why should I take your comments about DAW's seriously when you behave terribly if someone challenges your position? 

It has truth, as far as I can tell, but what is the point being so snarky?

*cough* irony *cough*

Dude seriously - what's with the tangent here?  Back to DAW stuff...

 

[Patrick from Davis]

But you do act like an ass and provoke responses in you sanctimonious manner.

Why should I take your comments about DAW's seriously when you behave terribly if someone challenges your position? 

It has truth, as far as I can tell, but what is the point being so snarky?

*cough* irony *cough*

Dude seriously - what's with the tangent here?  Back to DAW stuff...

Sure it has truth, just like you could write a letter with vi.  But your incessant childishly provoking responses make anything you say more of a carnival than something worth noting.  Apparently you missed the point of what I was saying about ProTools, and went back to your pillar.  I guess it isn't surprising.
Patrick

 

[Superlizard]

Sure it has truth, just like you could write a letter with vi.  But your incessant childishly provoking responses make anything you say more of a carnival than something worth noting.  Apparently you missed the point of what I was saying about ProTools, and went back to your pillar.  I guess it isn't surprising.
Patrick

Alllllrighty then.  :icon_scratch:

The fact that my firm opinions bother you so much says far more about yourself than it does me.

Now please drop it - if not for me, then at least do it for the kittens.

 

[OzziePete]

I too looked down at Pro Tools as originally it was way out of my reach and yes, that hardware exclusivity made it ridiculously expensive. And I doubted I would ever see it myself, as I don't work in studios.

But I was caught unawares by the release of Pro Tools 9 and quite frankly, you have to adjust your perceptions from time to time and catch up with what is currently happening, not what happened 10 years ago.

The company that originally owned Pro Tools has now been merged into a much larger organisation and well, times change. I was very surprised that Pro Tools is so mid stream market now. OK it ain't the full bells and whistles HD version, but still pretty detailed with features nonetheless, and yeah, much competitive with everything else in that mid stream area.

As I said in my earlier post, if PT9 had been available say, 2 years ago, I would probably had gone with it.

And thanx to whoever it was who corrected me about the VST compatibility issue for PT9 and the use of 'wrappers' to get the issue resolved. :icon_thumright:

 

[AndyG]

And thanx to whoever it was who corrected me about the VST compatibility issue for PT9 and the use of 'wrappers' to get the issue resolved. :icon_thumright:

That was me  :glasses9: and you're welcome  :icon_thumright:

Just to expand on a point about plugins (the point was brought up that those snobby Digidesign engineers developped RTAS for ProTools), VST was developed by Steinberg for their products ... Cubase and Nuendo.  Logic, which can only be used on an Apple computer these days, has their own exclusive plugin format known as AU (Audio Unit), which I believe is also what Garageband uses (another exclusive Apple product ... what gall!    ).  Almost every 3rd party plugin manufacturer offers their goodies in all 3 flavours.  It is true that most of the other DAW software writers have leaned toward VST as their plugin format of choice ... just like AISO or Directsound drivers have become the generic way these softwares talk to the interface you have hooked up to the computer.  But, as a developing company, you want your toys to work with your software first ...

There are ways to use other plugins in your favorite DAW, and it either involves the FXpansion wrapper, or an application called ReWire, depending on whose plugin you wish to use with which software.
Most of the currently available DAW softwares have plugin packages than come bundled.  That could be used as another consideration as to which DAW software package our friend Death By Diezel may lean towards.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

To be fair to Avid/Digidesign with the RTAS plugins, the idea was to monitor and help with the plugins to ensure quality.  That is what they said at least.  But as with Apple and their iPhone apps, they want a product that makes their product look good.  The VST's are open, and quite a number are not the highest quality.  FXpansion has said many times in their support threads that the primary reason for their wrapper failing is that the original VST's were improperly written.  This tends to give credit to the Avid argument.  But, when a properly written VST, like the freebies on SSL's site, is used, it will wrap without issue.  It is a quality management thing I guess.
Patrick