How Can I Be Sure....
- Thread starter Colin007
- Start date
bagman67
Epic Member
- Messages
- 9,117
Fret rocker - you can verify whether there are any high frets using one. See:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Straightedges/Fret_Rocker.html?actn=100101&xst=3&xsr=1857
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Straightedges/Fret_Rocker.html?actn=100101&xst=3&xsr=1857
Cagey
Mythical Status
- Messages
- 24,425
Oddly enough, a good fret job will not be obvious.
But, besides a fret rocker, you also need an accurate straightedge and some feeler gauges to make sure the neck is straight, otherwise the fret rocker will lie to you. There's supposed to be some curvature (relief) to the neck so it'll be a bit concave, which means a slightly high fret will sneak under the rocker.
Another trick you can do that costs nothing is to just lower a saddle and fret that string through the 21-24 frets and listen to it. If there's a high fret, it'll show up. You can tell which one it is because the buzzing will stop when you get past it. It'll probably sound dead overall, but ignore that. Listen for interference.
But, besides a fret rocker, you also need an accurate straightedge and some feeler gauges to make sure the neck is straight, otherwise the fret rocker will lie to you. There's supposed to be some curvature (relief) to the neck so it'll be a bit concave, which means a slightly high fret will sneak under the rocker.
Another trick you can do that costs nothing is to just lower a saddle and fret that string through the 21-24 frets and listen to it. If there's a high fret, it'll show up. You can tell which one it is because the buzzing will stop when you get past it. It'll probably sound dead overall, but ignore that. Listen for interference.
Jumble Jumble
Hero Member
- Messages
- 1,932
Yep, as above. The key thing is to identify and make a note of high frets before you give them the neck, then check again afterwards.
SustainerPlayer
Hero Member
- Messages
- 2,702
Measure the frets height before and after.
I use on of these.
Place it on a level surface and reset it to zero. Then place it on each fret around the high and low e-string and one reading in the middel. I put all these readings in a spreadsheet before and after a fretjob. So there is a complete "roadmap" of the fretboard.
During the fretjob I make new readings to compensate for the protectiontape on the fretboard just to make sure the leveling ends up right.
I use on of these.
Place it on a level surface and reset it to zero. Then place it on each fret around the high and low e-string and one reading in the middel. I put all these readings in a spreadsheet before and after a fretjob. So there is a complete "roadmap" of the fretboard.
During the fretjob I make new readings to compensate for the protectiontape on the fretboard just to make sure the leveling ends up right.
Cagey
Mythical Status
- Messages
- 24,425
That's a handy tool that makes for some great nut setups. I have one myself. But I wouldn't use it to measure fret heights. It's more for differential measurements. Thing is, your fretboard can have the topology of the Appalachians, as long as the tops of the frets are in a level plane. In an extreme example, consider a fretboard that's been scalloped. There's no way you could get consistent or meaningful height data from such a neck using that tool, even though all the frets may be in perfect alignment. You have the same problem with a typical neck, just not to the same degree.
That's why you use a straightedge and feeler gauges. All you care about is the tops of the frets, not the fretboard they're mounted in. Even Plek machines don't bother looking at the fretboard. They measure the frets, and correct from there.
That's why you use a straightedge and feeler gauges. All you care about is the tops of the frets, not the fretboard they're mounted in. Even Plek machines don't bother looking at the fretboard. They measure the frets, and correct from there.
SustainerPlayer
Hero Member
- Messages
- 2,702
Cagey said:
Exactly. Thus the before and after measurement. You get a reading of what is leveled away.
And I wouldn't use it for the actual level between frets - that were the Fretrocker excels. But that won't give you how much that were leveled away.
Cagey
Mythical Status
- Messages
- 24,425
Ok, I see what you're saying. But, why would you care how much fret height has been lost? Unless it's a large amount, it's unlikely to be perceptible. And if it is, then whaddaya gonna do?
In my experience, if the frets are worn enough that you're going to end up with noticeably shorter frets, you're probably better off replacing them. I can count on one hand how many fret jobs I've done in the last decade where you could sense that the frets ended up shorter, and those were because the frets themselves were just wrecked or the neck was bowed past correction. Users didn't care; they just wanted it playable again and weren't interested in new frets due to cost. So, you file the snot out of the things, re-crown them, polish 'em up and call it a love story.
The vast majority of fret levelling I do is on new necks and/or fret installations, which means I only knock off a couple/few thousandths here and there. Can't feel it, per se, but it allows for a more precise setup that plays/sounds better.
In my experience, if the frets are worn enough that you're going to end up with noticeably shorter frets, you're probably better off replacing them. I can count on one hand how many fret jobs I've done in the last decade where you could sense that the frets ended up shorter, and those were because the frets themselves were just wrecked or the neck was bowed past correction. Users didn't care; they just wanted it playable again and weren't interested in new frets due to cost. So, you file the snot out of the things, re-crown them, polish 'em up and call it a love story.
The vast majority of fret levelling I do is on new necks and/or fret installations, which means I only knock off a couple/few thousandths here and there. Can't feel it, per se, but it allows for a more precise setup that plays/sounds better.
Cagey
Mythical Status
- Messages
- 24,425
Let's back up just a little bit. You haven't even had the work done yet? If not, what makes you think you need it? And a step further - what makes you think you won't notice any improvement? And why are you worried? Do you think you'll get charged for work that hasn't been done?
I'll tell ya - I do a lotta fretwork here. It's my specialty. There's a good amount of work involved with just checking to see what needs to be done, let alone doing the actual corrections. Sometimes, you don't need to do much. Other times you get a waking nightmare. Unless the guy is a blatant cheater or grossly incompetent, it's unlikely he's not going to earn whatever he charges unless you live in an area where there's no competition. Some guys are better at it than others, but you can probably count on some improvement, so your money won't be wasted.
If you just don't trust the guy because he's only 17 years old and works at Guitar Center, there are alternatives. You could send it here, for instance. Or, look up some of the places that have Plek machines and send it to one of those. It's wildly expensive, but predictable and reliable, and almost as good as what I'd do.
I'll tell ya - I do a lotta fretwork here. It's my specialty. There's a good amount of work involved with just checking to see what needs to be done, let alone doing the actual corrections. Sometimes, you don't need to do much. Other times you get a waking nightmare. Unless the guy is a blatant cheater or grossly incompetent, it's unlikely he's not going to earn whatever he charges unless you live in an area where there's no competition. Some guys are better at it than others, but you can probably count on some improvement, so your money won't be wasted.
If you just don't trust the guy because he's only 17 years old and works at Guitar Center, there are alternatives. You could send it here, for instance. Or, look up some of the places that have Plek machines and send it to one of those. It's wildly expensive, but predictable and reliable, and almost as good as what I'd do.
SustainerPlayer
Hero Member
- Messages
- 2,702
Cagey said:
So data collecting OCD isn't enough in itself? :icon_jokercolor:
1. Why I started with that was because I encountered a problem with this Korean made Hammer californian 27 fret neck:
Though I gave it a fret leveling which the Fretrocker couldn't put a finger on. It still had a problem on the high frets. So I decided for giving it a fall away leveling there. And to have some control over that process I thought up the idea of using the nut slitting gauge for that purpose. And then I started "measuring" every neck I have done since then to see if there was more to gather from this.
2. I did a "compound leveling"* for a guy who had the usual problem of fretting out when bending on a 7,25" neck. He wasn't sure if would had this done to his main gigging guitar. But I did the compound leveling of the frets on his back up guitar for starters. It's also a 7,25" neck. So if he decides to do have it done on his main guitar I don't have to reinvent the wheel but have some data so I can obtain a like result more easy.
3. I recently purchased a Warmoth neck. It had all the specs I wanted except for the higher 6150 frets where I better like the 6130. So with the data from my favorite 6130 necks I can again rather easily grind the 6150 down to my preferred height.
I'm sure there can be other benefits from such data.
And If anyone is curious about how much fret material there is removed from a Warmoth compound neck fretted with 6130 frets. Here is the data:
Just ask if the chart doesn't make sense.
And yes - I'm a geek :glasses9:
And no - there is no such thing as too much data. :icon_biggrin:
SustainerPlayer
Hero Member
- Messages
- 2,702
* compound leveling - in this case transforming the 7,25" radius to a 7,25" to approx 12" on the frets only maintaining the 7,25" on the fretboard.
stratamania
Mythical Status
- Messages
- 11,955
Invisible ink that reveals itself in black light.
If the frets have been levelled then at least some if not all of that ink will be gone.
However before becoming a little too James Bond, or Felix Lighter, or so on, why not ask around in your area for recommendations of someone doing the type of work you are looking for and ask if you can see previous work etc.
If the frets have been levelled then at least some if not all of that ink will be gone.
However before becoming a little too James Bond, or Felix Lighter, or so on, why not ask around in your area for recommendations of someone doing the type of work you are looking for and ask if you can see previous work etc.
Similar threads
