Help with setting up action

[Last Triumph]

I've finally got my VIP finished and I'm struggling to get the action low enough.

The neck was set up and dressed by Cagey on here and the frets are beautiful.

Excuse my metric conversions, I'm in the UK....

I've got the action on the low E at about 5.5/64 (2.25 mm) gap from underside of the string to the 12th fret, which could go a tiny bit lower if I were to accept a little more buzz up top, but it's the higher strings that are causing me an issue.

The absolute lowest I can get the high E is 4.8/64 or 1.95 mm (gap at 12th) and even at that I can't quite get a full tone bend on the 17-21 fret without it choking out.

Where am I going wrong?

Logic tells me I should loosen the truss rod a touch for some relief, but it hardly made any difference at those high frets, plus made the action lower down the neck way too high. Tightening the truss rod made it slightly worse which kind of make me think that Cagey had set it up about right (not that I doubted him).

Here's the thing though...

I detest a high action.

I just mildly hate a 'normal' action.

I love a really low action.

My first ever guitar that I learned to play on was a POS Tanglewood ('92 when they were really crappy) LP copy with awful cheap hardware and questionable build - however the one thing it had going for it was an almost impossibly, unfathomably, scientifically improbably low action - to the point where you couldn't get a a thin beer mat under any of the strings.

I had a genuine Gibson LP some years later and was always disappointed that despite having it set up properly, the action was never as low as the cheap POS copy.

This is even higher than the Gibson and to the point where I don't enjoy playing it.

Where do I go from here?

Do I tighten it right up to lower the action at the 12th, then raise the bridge to compensate?

What happened to the Tanglewood POS? My ex smashed it into the wall whilst expressing her displeasure at me for something trivial. Probably squeezing the toothpaste from the middle or something. Like I say - my ex.

 

[TBurst Std]

For some odd reason, the thought to make sure your neck is fully seated came to my mind. 

 

[Last Triumph]

For some odd reason, the thought to make sure your neck is fully seated came to my mind.

Yes, absolutely air tight and snug.

It's a worry, as if I can't get the action significantly lower, I might as well sell it as I'll not be playing it like it is.

 

[musicispeace]

The more experienced should be weighing in within a day or two. Hang in there. There should be at least a couple potential work around options for you to get what you are looking for. Its a nice guitar for sure.

 

[TBurst Std]

I'd wait for Cagey to respond then as he is familiar with the neck. 
Have you checked the relief? Odd shot as that tends to show its impacts lower than the 12th fret.

 

[TBurst Std]

Another thought, Any finish residing on the neck heel or in the neck pocket.  Doesn't take much to mess with angles.

 

[Last Triumph]

Ok, so it's been 5 years since Cagey set it up (very well) and therefore all bets are off. 

I stripped it down, loosened off the truss rod until slack and started again. I think as the neck had settled it had ended up with too much relief as I ended up tightening it up about another half turn to get the relief where I felt it should be.

I play with 9-42s for the record (yes, it's a bit girly, I know)

Any way - after a good hour or so messing around, I've got it at 3/64 at the high E (12th, no cappo) and 3.5/64 at the low E which feels much better.

I might lower the nut slots a fraction too as it's a little 'tall' down there.

But all in all I'm relieved (pardon the pun) as it's now pretty good.

Am I correct in thinking that with a 10-16 neck, a 3/64 high E is about as low as you could hope for without chocking a full bend on the high E?

 

[TBurst Std]

Ok, so it's been 5 years since Cagey set it up (very well) and therefore all bets are off. 

I stripped it down, loosened off the truss rod until slack and started again. I think as the neck had settled it had ended up with too much relief as I ended up tightening it up about another half turn to get the relief where I felt it should be.

I play with 9-42s for the record (yes, it's a bit girly, I know)

Any way - after a good hour or so messing around, I've got it at 3/64 at the high E (12th, no cappo) and 3.5/64 at the low E which feels much better.


I might lower the nut slots a fraction too as it's a little 'tall' down there.

But all in all I'm relieved (pardon the pun) as it's now pretty good.

Am I correct in thinking that with a 10-16 neck, a 3/64 high E is about as low as you could hope for without chocking a full bend on the high E?

Yes, that is my shoot for measurement. 3/64 for e. 4/64 for E.

 

[Last Triumph]

Ok, so moving on to the nut - I want to deepen the slots to bring the strings closer to the first fret.

Having had a little search round the net, I see I need to get semi-circular slots like below...

With 9-42s, how does one achieve the ideal string slot shape with strings so fine?

Can anyone point me the direction of what I assume must be ultra fine needle files to achieve this?

Also, how is the top of the nut finished - fine sand paper? The nut as can be seen is black, but I've no idea what I chose when Warmoth built it - any reminders what their black nuts are made from?

Any hints, tips or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[stratamania]

To do nut slots you need nut files you can get them from places like Stewmac or in the UK

http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/nut-files-set-of-10.html

I've not used tonetech personally, and if you check out Stewmac you can buy the files separately.

If the nut is black it could be Tusq.

As you can see the files are not cheap. You could probably pay for a set up for less.  Where in the UK are you ?

 

[amigarobbo]

Ok, so moving on to the nut - I want to deepen the slots to bring the strings closer to the first fret.

Having had a little search round the net, I see I need to get semi-circular slots like below...

I've had guitars/basses with at least 2 of those 'No's, they were fine. First and third ones, since you're asking.

 

[Last Triumph]

To do nut slots you need nut files you can get them from places like Stewmac or in the UK

http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/nut-files-set-of-10.html

I've not used tonetech personally, and if you check out Stewmac you can buy the files separately.

If the nut is black it could be Tusq.

As you can see the files are not cheap. You could probably pay for a set up for less.  Where in the UK are you ?

Wow - they're not cheap, are they?

I'm on the Wirral - near Liverpool, Chester, North Wales etc.

The closest person to me is http://www.kgb-music.co.uk/ who set up my Les Paul once. Did a reasonable job but couldn't get the action where I wanted it. Maybe just the guitar?

 

[Fat Pete]

I've always had good results from Steve Robinson - Manchester Guitar Tech. He's close to the motorway in Sale/Wythenshawe area, so not too much of a drag from where you are.

He's worked on a few of my Warmoth's and his prices are very reasonable - despite doing work for 'big name' acts

 

[stratamania]

Youre out of luck as the Wirral is nowhere near me otherwise I might have been able to help you out. I don't know anyone personally near where you are, but there must be someone in the Norh West who can help.

I see Fat Pete has made a recommendation.

 

[amigarobbo]

If you can make it to central(ish, you can actually park there) you could try

http://www.jacksinstrumentservices.com

 

[Cagey]

I might lower the nut slots a fraction too as it's a little 'tall' down there.

Am I correct in thinking that with a 10-16 neck, a 3/64 high E is about as low as you could hope for without chocking a full bend on the high E?

Sorry, I didn't see this post earlier. I'm on a dodgy 'net connection lately, and I'm lucky to get on or get email.

Anyway, you've probably got room to lower the nut slots, as I don't think I was using a micrometer back then to measure string height when I cut slots, so I may have left them up a bit out of fear. Any more, I take them down to .012" at most, sometimes less, which is frighteningly close. I get the fretboard level to within <.001" over its length, then relieve to ~.008", so if there's a buzz anywhere, it's a geometry thing between the neck/string/body triangle. More on that in a bit.

With the neck flat, I can usually get string height at the 12th to .040" give or take a few thou without any string buzz or fret-out when bending, with the additional requirement on my part that it ring clear acoustically. You can get it lower without buzzing or boinking out, but the strings will start to slightly "deaden". If you're a Malmsteen-style shredder, that's usually not an issue as you'd likely be playing so high-gain that you could wrap the strings in surgical tubing and still get some sustain out of them  :laughing7: But, most players like to hear some tonal character out of their guitar so the strings need to ring uninhibited.

If you can't get the action close enough or are getting buzzes out of one of my necks, then there are a few things to consider. First, your bridge radius. A 10" to 16" radius neck needs a bridge radius of ~18". I'm not aware of any bridges with non-adjustable individual saddle heights that would come with that radius out of the box - they're usually much tighter, like 12". As a result, setting the bridge height to clear your high/low E strings is going to put the A,D,G,B strings farther off the fretboard. To fix it, you'll needs some files, and you'll be cutting the saddle slots for those 4 strings a bit deeper. Careful - this is always scary as you can't put metal back. If you cut a slot too deep, you'll either have to recut the others to match then raise the whole bridge, or replace the saddle or maybe even the whole bridge and start over.

What also might be happening if you're getting buzz in the higher registers is the geometry is ever so slightly off. Picture a perfectly flat neck/body line and the strings as two long sides of a triangle, with the bridge/saddle height a very short 3rd side. Now, if we put some relief in the neck, one of those long sides won't be straight. It'll start at the point of the triangle, curve away a bit, then come back to the line formed by the neck/body at the point the neck meets the body, and continue straight to bridge. Bit of a transition there.

Now, if you press the other long side toward it, you may go far enough into that dip that the line formed by the string touches the line formed by the neck/body at the point the neck meets the body. In real life, that's either gonna buzz or fret out. Adding more relief to the neck often makes the dip deeper at the same time it's bringing the headstock forward, so the problem may change, but doesn't go away.

If you're still with me, the fix for that is a very thin shim at the headstock side of the neck pocket. We want to tilt the headstock forward just a hair, so there's no way the upper frets can be taller than middle frets. You'll probably also have to take some relief out of the neck to flatten it a smidgen. Net result will be lower action, but you might get into that deadening effect I mentioned.

Finally, it's been 5 years you say? Frets can move. It's entirely possible you have a fret that's sitting a bit proud somewhere. With some fretwire, particularly stainless or EVO, the wire is so stiff that if it hasn't been perfectly radiused before pressing into the slot, part of it may spring back. In my experience, they usually they don't go anywhere after the first week or so. Other things can happen over time because wood moves, too, based on temperature and humidity. For example, fret sprout occurs because the fretboard dries out and shrinks, while the frets don't. Anyway, checking for uneven frets is easy and inexpensive. All you need is a fret rocker, which can be had for roughly $10. They're trapezoid-shaped with each of the 4 sides sized to allow you to span 3 frets anywhere on the neck. You simply lay the appropriate side across the first 3 frets and try to rock it. If it won't move, those 3 frets are probably level. If it rocks, the center fret is high. Mark it, and move on. I usually check the low E side, middle, and high E side. Do the whole neck, and you can map out everywhere it needs attention.

Hope some of that helps.

 

[stratamania]

Cagey,  just curious to address the upper fret thing you mention do you tend to use any fallaway on the upper frets versus a shim?

 

[Cagey]

Not consistently. I let the neck tell me. It seems like they don't all curve the same in response to the truss rod, so they may or may not need it. I should probably just do it as a matter of course because it doesn't hurt anything and by the time I know if it needs it, I've already got time in crowning/polishing that'll have to be repeated if I start chewing on the frets again.

 

[stratamania]

Thanks, Cagey. I started doing it as it seemed a small step and as you say if it's needed you don't need to revisit. 

 

[Last Triumph]

Thanks Cagey - I'm kind of with you in understanding, I think.

I've got it much better and pretty darn close, with my only issue now being a little fret out on the high E only when on a full 1 tone bend on from the 18th, 19th, 20th frets. All other strings, frets are fine on a full bend.

I'm currently at 3/64 high E, 3.5/64 low E (12th fret, gap under string to fret top) which is about as low as I want to go tonally. It's already just starting to dull the tone slightly, which I can live with for the sake of low action.

I've got a 10-16 radius neck, with 22 gold 6150 frets.

I've got the neck relief at about 10 thou, maybe a tiny bit less.

I'm using a Gotoh 510 wraparound bridge which has a 13.7" Radius.

I'f I'm choking out on more than 1 fret on the high E with a full bend, does the fact that it's choking on more than 1 fret suggest it's not a specific fret issue and more likely a set up issue?

Am I right in thinking that to solve the choke issue, I need the next fret upstream to be a tiny bit lower?

If this is the case, the only way to do this without raising the bridge (hence action) would be to reduce the neck relief further to lower the action, then raise the bridge further to compensate, thus in effect increasing the triangulation from the string, neck, fret relationship at the upper frets?

Or, if that doesn't work, by shimming the neck as you say?

I'm loathed to shim the neck, only because any kind of gap in the joint messes with my OCD to such an extent, I'll come out in hives. LOL.

Am I on the correct path?