help - loose tuners

[Phaedrus]

alright, so finally the gotoh tuners arrived and I was out to check their fit.

The hole was drilled by warmoth for 10.32, and the tuners are 10 mm..I feel stupid for missing this somehow. I am pretty sure I checked if the Gotoh SG38 are the same as the GOTOH SGS510 (what I have), but now I can't even find the SG38 on GOTOH's site, and I fear I somehow got confused in the way and mixed things up..

Anyhow - they are loose. Not totally rambling about, but they wiggle around and I know it should be snug in..

So I already sanded the neck - so the warrenty doesn't apply ( I think). What can I do to fix this?
Found the super-glue fix here. Is that any good? Any other ideas?

I have maple dust, but I think the space is not that big as to need wood filling. what do you say?

Thanks

 

[stratamania]

http://www.warmoth.com/hardware/tuners/pdf/gotoh_sg38.pdf

http://www.g-gotoh.com/international/?btp_product=sg381

http://www.g-gotoh.com/international/?btp_product=sgs510

They are all the same. You have a tolerance from your measurement of 0.16 of a mm at either side. Put them in put on the 14 mm washer and the nut which has a shoulder and  I think you will find this isn't a problem.

 

[Phaedrus]

Thing is that even with everything in place I can still move it around.. :dontknow:
Sure I can just place it closest to the nut, and hope for the best that the screw will hold it still....But I think that ain't right..

 

[Cagey]

They do need to fit. Buy a set of tuners that will fit, and put the ones you have on eBay or in The Drawer of Misfit Parts.

 

[stratamania]

Well none of us can actually see or feel whether or not these are too loose or not.

I didn't mean move them closer to the string nut. I meant the threaded part with a heaxagonal shape that goes into the tuner from the front of the headstock which are what holds the tuner on. Did you tighten that part ?

The screws at the back are mainly only for alignment.

If they really are too loose then you can remove them and try different tuners. 

If you can't get different tuners for some reason you could also neatly wrap some PTFE plumbers tape around the part of the tuner that fits into the hole. That would be a better approach than trying to build up the hole with wood dust. It also has the benefit that you can swap out the tuners at a later time and the hole is still as it was.

 

[Phaedrus]

I know it not being in your hands is a problem. Still, thanks for the help.

I did fit the nut in,  tighten it by hand and managed to move it by hand. I can tighten it with a wrench but under string pressure it would surely move as well.

I checked with a diameter- in the tuner it is exactly 10 mm. In the neck it is 10.2 - meaning just 0.1 either side. As I said- it doesn't wiggle- it just moves. Hopw this helpes for the analysis.

Other tuners - I would really rather not. The main problem is that the rest of the tuners are even smaller (Grover- 9.9, spretzel - 9.6 and so on /= ). If there was a tuner that would fit and be as good - I might have sadly let go of the GOTOH's (I really like the locking+hight adjusment feature). But it seems that there is no alternative (yay?).

Any how- so I'm back with finding a solution:
1) Wouldn't the PTFE tape really suck down the sustain? Sounds like putting a piece of rubber between the neck and the body..It might hold- but at what cost?
2) Have anyone tried the super-glue solution?
http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/acoustic-guitar/tuners.php

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[The Hun]

If I were faced with this situation I'd probably "quit" and order some tuners sized for the holes I got.

If I absolutely had to keep those tuners I would rather use something like this than superglue:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-shims/=t37mw1

They have metric sizes in steel, watch your dissimilar metals if you go with that.

I'm not a fan of shimming, but if it doesn't fit?

 

[stratamania]

.1 mm either side is something just less than 4 thousandths of an inch.  Doesn't seem like a lot but if you don't like PTFE tape perhaps aluminium or copper shielding tape ?

Superglue could be an option but could be messier.

If you tighten them down and have the alignment screws along with one of the above methods fitted I wouldn't think the tone police would notice sustain. Certainly not on a fretted note.

I think if you were to go and take the tuners off a number of guitars you would find similar small gaps.

 

[The Hun]

.1 mm either side is something just less than 4 thousandths of an inch.  Doesn't seem like a lot but if you don't like PTFE tape perhaps aluminium or copper shielding tape ?

Superglue could be an option but could be messier.

If you tighten them down and have the alignment screws along with one of the above methods fitted I wouldn't think the tone police would notice sustain. Certainly not on a fretted note.

I think if you were to go and take the tuners off a number of guitars you would find similar small gaps.

I agree with this. That is such a small gap, it may just be normal to have a gap that small. Please don't use the glue though. I have a bad feeling that could make a real mess.

 

[Cagey]

If one is used to "vintage" or Kluson tuners, then gaps or loose fits, along with gear backlash, string wind stretch/unstretch, etc. are a way of life. Most of them are so sloppy it's a wonder the guitar tunes at all, and they rarely stay that way for long if you do get them there. Many of the "guitar greats" signature sounds were partially a result of guitars that wouldn't tune. Look at Hendrix. Ever hear him play anything in tune for more than 30 seconds? It was that poorly designed Strat vibrato, a crummy nut and beer can tuners.

But, if you're building something new, it makes little sense to tolerate the poor performance that ancient ways provided. May as well buy an old rag ride and fight with that.

Since you bought locking Gotohs, I assume that you want what modern technology offers. Part of the success of that, though, is that they fit. They should be tight. Shimming or gluing or bra-stuffing isn't going to do it.

I'm curious what size hole those actually are (I don't understand your dimensional designations). Warmoth doesn't just drill holes at random; they're all sized to fit some standard tuner. Few manufacturers don't offer lockers, as it's the only way to go these days. So, what does the order sheet say? I'm sure we can find some lockers that will work.

 

[Phaedrus]

Well, to put it simple- the neck was ordered for "Gotoh/Grover (13/32'' 11/32'')"
On Warmoth's site it says this should be 10.32mm & 8.73mm. It is the biggest there is (the other drills are 9.92 or below).
In real life- my neck has 10.2 mm Holes (at least by my check with the tool-that-measuers-diameter-I-have-no-idea-how-you-say-it-in-english..)

Thing is- I checked the dimensions of different tuners after you suggested looking for something else. Gotoh have the biggest diameter (10 mm according to their site as well as on the actual heads I have). Grover is 9.9. Nothing I found is 10.3.

So.....What now?

 

[Cagey]

I don't know what to tell you. You're saying the holes are smaller than what you ordered, yet your tuners are loose even though they require larger holes.

Call Warmoth (253-845-0403). I'm sure they can make some sense of it all. If they screwed up, they'll make it good. If you screwed up, I'm sure they'll have some viable solutions.

 

[Phaedrus]

Well, technically the tuners don't call for bigger holes. The Warmoth holes are meant to be 10.3mm, and the Gotoh tuners are 10mm.

I can't really see what warmoth can do about it.Maybe They'll find a drill measure that fits 10 mm. Who knows. I guess just letting them know might help- maybe they'll mention it on the site so people will be aware of the difference.

Still, it is so weird. Am I the first ever to try and fit Gotoh's on a neck? How has this never come up?

I don't know...It really bummed me out..

 

[Phaedrus]

Well, Warmoth basically say that they put this gap so it would be easier to install the tuners.

It is odd for me that a 0.15 gap each side is needed, let alone the 0.2 if you use Grovers.  If it was 10.1mm I'de get it...But now all I have left is to figure something out.. Different tuners won't work as Gotohs are the biggest as far as I know..

I came upon this -
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/tuner-hole-too-big-fixed.654183/

What do you think?
I am really lost now..
It is either this, the layers of glue, or just giving this up and installing them as is, which to me sounds like a terrible idea..

 

[stratamania]

The link you posted with aluminium or you could use copper is the same as I suggested a few posts ago.

I don't even think the gap you have is too big, but the tape idea will make them tighter if you want to do that.

 

[Phaedrus]

I went with the aluminium. The PTFE, being made of elstic material didn't sound as such a good option, but in the end I guess it really doesn't make that much difference.
I've gone to read on the topic and many recomended the aluminium for such situations.

I gave it a try- and it is really snug in!
Just one wrap did it. We'll so how this ends.

 

[stratamania]

Cool, I think aluminium or copper is definitely a better idea than PTFE which was something off the top of my head before morning coffee.

Looking forward to seeing your finished guitar.