Having both 500K and 1M pots in a tele deluxe

[smjenkins]

I'm looking to build a tele deluxe with Telenator's wide range recreations.  This is the thread where the pickup development is documented.  http://www.tdpri.com/forum/just-pickups/102490-fender-wide-range-humbuckers.html.

In this thread, the first iteration Telenator made yielded a pickup he really liked the sound of, but wasn't that close to the original wide ranges.  He ran this pickup through 500K pots.  The final design of his recreations are apparently very close to the originals and sound best through 1M pots.  I'd like to get one of each of these pickups in the same guitar.  The ideas is to run one set of 500K pots for tone and volume of one pu and a set of 1M pots for the tone and volume for the other pu.  Looking at the standard tele deluxe wiring diagram, it looks like the switch isolates the two pickups and that the signal doesn't go through both sets of pots (except in the middle position).

http://support.fender.com/diagrams/telecaster/0137702A/SD0137702APg2.pdf

My question for you guys, will this work in recreating the two sounds in the same guitar, or do I need to come up with an alternate way to wire it?

 

[Cagey]

It looks like it will. But, wiring diagrams are never as clear as schematics, so there's always some concern.

 

[JaySwear]

i think it would work fine. i think quite a few guitars out there mix pot values. if i build my tele custom i've got planned i'll most likely look into a 250k for the bridge single and a 500k for the neck pickup. then again i was thinking of going to telenator for the neck pickup, so i might end up with a 1meg, which would really make me wonder about what to do for the bridge pickup...

anyway, i think you could recreate the two sounds really well in the same guitar without much problem.

 

[OzziePete]

While this subject of mixed pots is raised, can I ask about the values?

How are they arrived at? Did Leo just look around one day and have a stack of 250K pots and decide to use them with the single coils and found they sounded great, or is there some magic figure they are trying to arrive at? (using the DC resistance of the coils, the inductance, the pot values and the cap value). It would seem, to the layman, that there is some sort of underlying formula, as when they went to twincoils with the humbuckers they found 500K pots the best - which is double the value for the optimal single coil pots (250K).

Also I noticed that the Jazzmaster and Jaguar guitars, with the rhythm circuits, use a 1m linear pot for volume and a 50k linear tone pot...so which value is commanding the rule here about the resultant sound?

 

[bob7point7]

I'm not sure how Leo originally decided to use 250K pots, or how Gibson decided to use 500K pots, but those work well in their respective applications because the higher the impedance (AC resistance) seen by the pickup, the brighter the sound. Since single coils are naturally bright, the lower value 250K pots are good for making them a little warmer. Since humbuckers are usually relatively warm, the higher resistance 500K pots help to keep the sound from getting too muddy (just ask anyone who's swapped the 300K pots Gibson uses now with 500K pots). 1M pots are brighter still. Of course, it makes a difference what you plug the guitar into as well. Tube amps generally have high input impedance, so plugging straight in to the amp can yield a nice bright sound. Plug the guitar into an Ernie Ball volume pedal (which uses a 250K pot that's effectively wired in parallel with whatever pots are in your guitar), and some of those highs will be rolled off. If you're looking for a small change, tweaking pot values can be a much more cost effective way of dialing in your sound than swapping pickups.

Now, in a weak attempt not to hijack the thread, I'll say to the OP that using different pot values for the two different pickups should give you the result you're looking for. I'm also interested to hear how you end up liking those wide range pickups!  :toothy11:

 

[tfarny]

Ozzie, both companies have used all kinds of values over the years, but they are just most associated with the values they used on the early stuff. I would like someone to test the pots in a new American Strat and see if they are still 250k, wouldn't be surprised if they weren't. Nowadays Fender uses no-load and alternative wirings in a lot of their stuff, but people are still fixated on 250k.
People ought to experiment with pot and cap values, it's likely you'll find values outside of the traditional ones that you like better in your axe, instead of copying whatever they had laying around in the 50s. Personally I like to go for 500k or 1 meg pots in everything, and smaller tone caps either .022 or .01 - a little more high end potential, and a more useable range of tones / less mud.

 

[drewfx]

Ozzie, both companies have used all kinds of values over the years, but they are just most associated with the values they used on the early stuff. I would like someone to test the pots in a new American Strat and see if they are still 250k, wouldn't be surprised if they weren't. Nowadays Fender uses no-load and alternative wirings in a lot of their stuff, but people are still fixated on 250k.
People ought to experiment with pot and cap values, it's likely you'll find values outside of the traditional ones that you like better in your axe, instead of copying whatever they had laying around in the 50s. Personally I like to go for 500k or 1 meg pots in everything, and smaller tone caps either .022 or .01 - a little more high end potential, and a more useable range of tones / less mud.

+++

I will only add that if you are going for a "totally vintage" sound, it makes some sense to use the traditional values.

Other than that, it's just a matter of taste that people make way too much of deal over. Part of this is because the vintage nuts claim that if you do anything different than Leo did it 50+ years ago, it must be wrong. But Leo just tinkered with things until they worked, got feedback from customers and then tinkered some more - there was nothing "magic" about it, except that it worked well. If different pots/caps/PU's/woods/etc. work as well (or better) for you, then those are the "magic" components.

 

[Schlieren]

In conversation with Lindy Fralin, his opinion was that out of a guitar, one could pretty much never have it be "too bright", since there are so many ways to roll off the high frequencies if it turns out there's a problem (at the amp, using a different amp, string composition (nickel being warmer), different cables, signal path, &c. &c.).

He also said that the tonal differences between 1M and 500K pots are pretty negligible to the human ear and that some people might have trouble noticing much of a difference between 500K and 250K even, so why not go with what gives you the most options from the get-go?

 

[smjenkins]

Thanks everyone for the advice.  I'm not sure who these Fender or Fralin guys are, but they sound like good folks.  :icon_biggrin:

I'm going to go with the alternating neck and bridge pups.  Telenator is working on them now.  This one will definitely have some sound clips posted.  Probably not until December though.