Fret(s) still buzzing - final piece of advice sought

[pabloman]

It's got jumbo frets and 10's right now. I just put it back together and all I had layin around were 10's. It's super poopy. Maybe I need to put everything else away and leave that one on the stand.

 

[NovasScootYa]

IMO, Your problem maybe or partially attributed to having the frets leveled. Warmoth Pro Construction necks do not need fret leveling. Generally the only somewhat necessary work required on a Pro Construction neck is rounding the fret-ends or rolling the frets and board. (Rolling/beveling frets and the board is not for the inexperienced.  When using a 2 7/32" bridge it is crucial to maintain space between the high E string and edge of the board between the 12th to 22nd fret; those fret-ends should receive the "least amount" of rounding).
Because necks are made of wood and subject to stresses from the truss rod, string tension and change in the weather high fret issues are addressed only after the instrument is setup correctly, played for awhile and the structure has settled. High frets or a high spot on a fret can be located with a Stew Mac fret rocker tool and seated with a brass or plastic fret driver. On rare occasions a low fret is found and lifted. Sometimes it is necessary to span 4 frets with the rocker to locate a high/low area. Most of the time it's areas on 3-5 frets that may shift a bit and need attention. And sometimes spot leveling is necessary.
Besides destroying perfect factory fret crowns and getting paid for it when someone levels the frets they undo close tolerance machine settings, etc. What was a 16 radius maybe a 14 radius in spots or vice versa. And because of the nature of wood as described above their fret level is anything but level after time.
Initial Pro Construction relief adjustment is made on the heel end with a screwdriver until resistance is met then add a screw slot width more and mark the slot position. With the strings tuned way down the side adjust is tightened using one finger to sense resistance, mark the Allen-Head and bore. Always loosen strings prior to using the side adjustor. Standard thin necks are more sensitive to adjustments than thicker necks. Pro Truss rods are gradually adjusted slowly over time until the sweet spot is found and then left alone.
When the strings are stretched and holding tune check the neck relief on the low E held down at the first and 17th fret. There should be around .010" string clearance at the 7th fret. Some necks need more or less relief than others. Pro Construction neck relief seems to go lower than Vintage Modern.
For the nut, check the string clearance off the first fret while holding the string down on the second fret. Generally around .008" clearance for the low E, A, D, G. and .006 for the B and .005 for the high E.
After the nut is setup the string height should be adjusted at the 12th fret to a half hair under 5/64" for the low E, A, D and a hair under 5/64" for the G. The B should be a hair over 4/64" and the high E string should cover the 4/64" mark. If you are a hard string plucker you may want to go higher. SRV setup was 5/64" high E to 7/64" low E at the 12th fret.
A visual inspection should show a tight pickguard and lifted 22nd fret (usually a problem with thicker Carvin style pickguards) or loosen the pickguard screws and see if the pickguard moves or loosen the neck. Also some strings are more prone to buzzing especially when tuned flat. I.E. GHS Boomers are more prone to buzz than GHS Nickel Rockers, etc. Setup acoustically first and you won't hear an amp buzz later.
Unfortunately your problems seem due to leveling or certainly have the same symptoms. That's not to say a honest attempt wasn't made to do a good job.

 

[Cagey]

You sound exceptionally knowledgeable about Warmoth necks. Do you work in that department?

 

[-CB-]

Thats just basic setup...

 

[pabloman]

The only way the frets would buzz from leveling is if the last two frets didn't get leveled or weren't leveled enough. If you fret at 18 and get buzz from 21 or 22 neck relief and nut setup are all pretty much out the window. Nut slots were never a factor since the fretting takes place after the nut anyway. But thanks for the specs. That's good refverence material.

 

[NovasScootYa]

The only way the frets would buzz from leveling is if the last two frets didn't get leveled or weren't leveled enough. If you fret at 18 and get buzz from 21 or 22 neck relief and nut setup are all pretty much out the window. Nut slots were never a factor since the fretting takes place after the nut anyway. But thanks for the specs. That's good refverence material.

In one of 3 posts the man mentioned his buzzing problem started at the 5th fret and others said it was narrowed down to various strings, 22nd fret contact, saddles adjusted to the max, etc.
If an adjusted string is held at the 5th fret and buzzes on the 22nd fret, the 22nd fret would have to stand out like a speed bump. Obviously the problem is all over the map so it was time to start over from the nut.
Leveling frets, re-fretting a neck is very precise work which many people do but very few do correctly. Anyone who understands what refretting necks, leveling, etc. is about would take one look at a new Warmoth Neck and advise against conventional leveling. There is a reason Warmoth necks that have been leveled (un-leveled) are found on eBay.
I also mentioned spot leveling in my post. Spot leveling addresses problem areas such as 18-22nd frets. Thanks for your reply.

 

[pabloman]

Well if you believe the 22nd fret is standing up as a speed bump then it doesn't sound as if it is all over the map. Obviously you are strongly against a conventional leveling job on the W neck. That's cool. I'm not arguing that point. I was going by the post that stated it is still buzzing from the 22nd fret. It may have started at the 5th but the neck has also been adjusted so since he isn't stating it is still buzzing there I imagine that has been taken care of. Now if you truely understand fret leveling you would realize that regardless of what radius or combination of radii that you START with, as long as the neck itself is stable, ALL the frets will be level to eachother. In the end we are all just speculating since we do not have this neck in hand. I would also like to say that I have nev er been blessed to have a Warmoth neck in hand. I do plan to remedy this soon. Now I was under the impression that W does advise fretwork on their new necks, at least that it might be needed. Is this correct? What is it that makes ALL new W necks not require leveling? If you do not level a fretboard conventionally then how would you level one? I am unfamiliar with this so I am curious.

 

[-CB-]

What is it that makes ALL new W necks not require leveling?

I'm not an insider, but the go-together works something like this.  The neck has the board applied, and the radius of the neck is determined and machined (or probably abrasively planed) onto the board.  Then, the board has its fret slots cut in all at once.  The result is very even fretboard surface to start with, and uniform slots.  Then the slots are prepped (cleaned) and the frets glued/pressed into place.  The bottom of the frets are resting on the top of the uniformly machined board.  At that point - you're pretty much good to go on leveling.  Only the fret ends need work at that point.

The work comes on a maple fretboard, which has the finish applied over the frets.  It needs to be scraped off.  On a non-maple fretboard, it should be playable "as is".

I really think that the majority of problems folks experience with necks are from 1 of 3 causes.  Too high an expectation - wanting very low action where it cannot be done, simply by the geometry of things.  Or, not knowing the intricate details of doing a setup on a newly assembled guitar.  Or, screwing things up because they "thought" they knew how to do a setup, ended up trying to cut, fiddle, level, coax, polish, or otherwise trick metal, wood, and corian into behaving as they want.

 

[Cagey]

Good job. A better explanation does not exist.

I'd only add that in the geometry category, the strings need a certain amount of space to vibrate. They do sorta move back and forth, up and down, etc. (it's actually a semi-circular motion) so you have to leave room for that. You can't have an action within .010", especially on the lower strings, or they're going to run into the frets farther up the neck no matter how flat or relieved it is. Shredders can get away with closer actions because they never hold a note long enough to appreciate. A shredder's fiddle will have ridiculously low action, but it doesn't matter - the string never has a chance to sound out. Play one of those guitars acoustically, and they sound quite dead. The action is so low the string never get a chance to ring properly. But, run it through a high-gain high-compression situation, and you can get away with murder.

 

[NovasScootYa]

Well if you believe the 22nd fret is standing up as a speed bump then it doesn't sound as if it is all over the map. Obviously you are strongly against a conventional leveling job on the W neck. That's cool. I'm not arguing that point. I was going by the post that stated it is still buzzing from the 22nd fret. It may have started at the 5th but the neck has also been adjusted so since he isn't stating it is still buzzing there I imagine that has been taken care of. Now if you truely understand fret leveling you would realize that regardless of what radius or combination of radii that you START with, as long as the neck itself is stable, ALL the frets will be level to eachother. In the end we are all just speculating since we do not have this neck in hand. I would also like to say that I have nev er been blessed to have a Warmoth neck in hand. I do plan to remedy this soon. Now I was under the impression that W does advise fretwork on their new necks, at least that it might be needed. Is this correct? What is it that makes ALL new W necks not require leveling? If you do not level a fretboard conventionally then how would you level one? I am unfamiliar with this so I am curious.

The only thing I can suggest is once you purchase a neck level it yourself or have someone do it for you and please post the outcome.
The Pleck Co. levels frets with a machine and I'm sure they do a good job for a hefty price. However, by the time they ship the neck back and a week or two of adjusting and playing passes you can bet your bottom dollar a fret or two has shifted even though you may not notice it.  But when you do notice a buzz you wouldn't consider leveling a Plecked neck so you’re stuck with the methods in my original post which suggests finding high frets or a high area on a fret and reseating, etc.
Let's say you conventional level a neck and it checks out with a straight edge but the strings buzz. Do you suppose the frets could show level and head in a slight uphill direction? I.E. The first fret is lower than the second fret and the second fret is lower than the third fret but a straight edge bridged across the three says they're level.  Do you suppose that may have an effect when playing chords, etc? The 4th, 5th & 6th frets could gradually plane out like a motorboat and appear level with the 1st, 2nd and 3rd frets. This and other phenomena usually begins when someone grinds away on a high spot until the file contacts the low fret(s) they are after. In the wrong hands the area where the 10-16 radius transitions often takes a beating too.
The only thing that avoids creating dips and valleys on a plane is a machine. That's mostly why when a Warmoth neck comes off the cooker you don't go back and spoil the soup by throwing in something that does not belong there, IMO: leveling. Chances are very good the relationship between the height of the frets and the precision cut fingerboard will be permanently altered. You cannot put back what you grind away. The hills and valleys from leveling may vary only by a couple of thousandths but are subject to the forces from the truss rod, strings and nature. And, no one said new Warmoth frets were perfectly level even though they may appear level to the eye. What was suggested is a procedure to level the frets after the neck has settled without risky grinding. Frankly, to make a point, if you gave me a $500.00 Warmoth neck someone had leveled I’d throw it in the trash.
I have 5 Stratocasters posted on this site, all were equipped with new Warmoth necks and not one has any conventional fret leveling. All the necks received the same treatment as described in my first post including precision fret beveling, rolled edges, etc. All have the feel of Fender necks and all work was performed by yours truly. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Cagey]

I have 5 Stratocasters posted on this site, all were equipped with new Warmoth necks and not one has any conventional fret leveling. All the necks received the same treatment as described in my first post including precision fret beveling, rolled edges, etc. All have the feel of Fender necks and all work was performed by yours truly.

From what I've read of what you've written, I'm sure your understanding of neck/string geometry and preparation is above average. So, I'm curious why you'd be satisfied with Fender fret prep and feel, or call that something desirous. Not that they do a bad job, but it's certainly nothing to write home about. As much as I badmouth Gibson, I think their frets are in better shape straight out of the box. Of course, we're talking degrees here. Gibson's work is nothing to write home about, either. In all cases, Warmoth's necks come in closer to usable than anybody's I've worked with. Still, the neck is part of a "system". You can't get the frets right on a neck in isolation - it needs to be installed and stressed over time. That's why Warmoth qualifies their builds. They're often peerless right out of the box, but they certainly can't guarantee that. So, some weasel words are in order <grin>

 

[CrackedPepper]

Never thought I would be quoting myself but I wanted to bring everyone back to the original topic:

I think pabloman is on to something.  I'm 90% sure that the fretboard extension did not crack because I put this particular pickguard on after the neck was installed.  Getting the pickguard under the fret board was really tight.  It would not surprise me if the pickguard pushed the extension up some.  The problem is definitely at the last fret so this theory makes sense.

I'm going to use a cabinet scraper on the pickguard this weekend and remove a few millimeters of plastic beneath the extension.  Post of results to follow.

So I finally found the time to do this.  I used an awl to trace and etch the outside of the fretboard extension and used cabinet scrapers to remove some pickguard material.  I can now get three pieces of paper between the fretboard extension and the pickguard.

The bottom line is *seems* to have helped with the 5th string -  now the 6th string is the only string that is buzzing. I've tested it with 11s (GHS) and 9s (Fender).  I'm going to give the neck a day or so to settle from the truss rod adjustments as goncalo alves seems to move really slowly.  If it is still buzzing after that, I'm going to whack it with a plastic hammer.  If it still buzzes after that, it'll be time for a haircut.

 

[NovasScootYa]

I have 5 Stratocasters posted on this site, all were equipped with new Warmoth necks and not one has any conventional fret leveling. All the necks received the same treatment as described in my first post including precision fret beveling, rolled edges, etc. All have the feel of Fender necks and all work was performed by yours truly.

From what I've read of what you've written, I'm sure your understanding of neck/string geometry and preparation is above average. So, I'm curious why you'd be satisfied with Fender fret prep and feel, or call that something desirous. Not that they do a bad job, but it's certainly nothing to write home about. As much as I badmouth Gibson, I think their frets are in better shape straight out of the box. Of course, we're talking degrees here. Gibson's work is nothing to write home about, either. In all cases, Warmoth's necks come in closer to usable than anybody's I've worked with. Still, the neck is part of a "system". You can't get the frets right on a neck in isolation - it needs to be installed and stressed over time. That's why Warmoth qualifies their builds. They're often peerless right out of the box, but they certainly can't guarantee that. So, some weasel words are in order <grin>

Take a new Warmoth neck with tall 6105 wire out of the box and run your hand down the neck and you'll notice the fret ends right away. Take any new Fender guitar found at a music store and run your hand down the neck. There's the edge difference and the difference anyone who assembles guitars from parts should learn to emulate or surpass if they want to build a first class instrument. A more clearer difference are the necks Fender hand rolls on their upper-end models. How fret-ends are shaped, angled, etc. can make or break how an instrument feels and plays, especially one with tall frets. 6105 wire is a popular size and tricky to work with if you don't know when to say when with a fret bevel and file.
Gibson uses .036" wire which produces very little fret-end drag because it's not tall. A Warmoth neck with .036" wire will feel almost acceptable out of the box. And, most Gibsons have bound necks which helps soften the feel of fret-ends, etc.
As for leveling vs. non-leveling, you really do not need a special tool to locate a high fret buzz. However a magic marker is needed to mark an area on a high fret. Let's assume the neck is a good one and relief is set correctly, etc. and it's time to check for clean notes...  
To start, lay the guitar on a table and hold the high E string down on the 21st fret, pluck it according to your playing style and listen. No buzz will mean the 22nd fret height is ok and it’s not preventing the 21st fret from sounding clean.
When holding the string on the 21st fret check the string clearance above the 22nd fret by pushing the string down or slightly bounce the string off the fret. The clearance should appear very close to the clearance found when holding the string down on the 20th fret and checking string clearance above the 21st fret and so on. Any noticeable clearance discrepancy between the frets and string is marked and dealt with after the entire neck is checked maybe twice or three times. High frets beneath the close high E string from the 12th to 22nd fret are the hardest to spot, the other strings are easier.
The buzz check above is performed by eye and ear, mostly by eye because you want the distance between the string and fret to be fairly consistant as you move toward the nut. Basically it’s how you map out a neck without tools so to speak.  Most high frets are simply reseated with an appropriate driver and an appropriate hammer and appropriate force, some frets may require leveling or material removed with a crowning tool, etc.
Basically the steps are for those who want their action to go as low as possible and sound clean up and down the neck. Of course if the action goes too low on a Strat you lose a bit of string stretch which aides bends, vibrato, etc.  A high E set at 3/64" above the 12th fret will lose a bit of bending and vibrato when matched against a high E set at 5/64" because the higher string is automatically stretched more while fretting thus giving it a miniscule head start. That's why I set my high E string in between to about cover the 4/64" line on a machinist rule.
On shorter scale Gibsons with good accurate necks the action is best set low but not shredder low unless you're a shredder. Thanks for your reply.

 

[CrackedPepper]

I am currently in the process of mapping all fret heights using a digital caliper.  I am surprised by the variance in heights between frets that have supposedly been "leveled".

 

[Cagey]

I'm curious what you're seeing as variance, and what you're using to measure with.

 

[NovasScootYa]

I am currently in the process of mapping all fret heights using a digital caliper.  I am surprised by the variance in heights between frets that have supposedly been "leveled".

You'll need a special caliper with a notched base to clear the fret and stand positively level otherwise a standard caliper will tilt and show different readings.  Try locating high frets according to the strings as noted in above post.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Measuring/Luthiers_Digital_Caliper.html?tab=Pictures#details

 

[Cagey]

You'll need a special caliper with a notched base to clear the fret and stand positively level otherwise a standard caliper will tilt and show different readings.  Try locating high frets according to the strings as noted in above post.

I think you're right; that's what's happening to him. I have dial calipers here that have extension rods for depth measurement, but it's difficult to keep them square with things, so it's tough to measure things like fret height accurately. There's a tendency to rock to one side or the other, which blows the reading's accuracy away. The best you can hope for is something close, so you can identify the fret gauge if you need to. Besides, if the height varied as much as he seems to be saying, the neck would be nearly or completely unplayable unless the string height was unusually high.

Where the rubber meets the road is in consistency rather than any particular height, so while a height measurement might be useful for fret identification purposes, the number is otherwise useless. What you really want to know is if adjacent frets are equal in height, not how high they are. For that, fret rockers work better than anything.

 

[Superlizard]

so it's tough to measure things like fret height accurately.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for:_Nuts_and_saddles/Nut_Slotting_Gauge.html

I've one of these - it's for string height (nut slotting), but no reason why it couldn't be used for fret height as well.

 

[Cagey]

I'm surprised they don't mention that use in the catalog write-up.

 

[NovasScootYa]

so it's tough to measure things like fret height accurately.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for:_Nuts_and_saddles/Nut_Slotting_Gauge.html

I've one of these - it's for string height (nut slotting), but no reason why it couldn't be used for fret height as well.

After studying the tool it appears it would be better at determining fret height than what it's supposed to do. The way to determine needed nut slot depth is by holding the string down on the second fret and with a simple feeler gauge check the string clearance above the first fret. Generally, adjusting to .008" clearance works for the E A D G and .006" B and .005 E. $60.00 bucks should head to another build.