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Firebird Build - WIP

nickmv

Junior Member
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26
So, I've begun my build of my Firebird, and already have run into silly problems that I did not expect.

The first thing I noticed was that my Lollar Firebird mini-bucker pickups don't in fact fit into the mini humbucker routs. They are approx 1/10 of an inch wider than the rout. It's kinda silly, to be honest. Warmoth makes no mentions of minibucker dimensions on their site when building bodies (only on pickguards), but Lollar makes no mention of dimensions either. I assumed that they would fit, but I'll have to take the dremel sanding tool to it to widen it 1/10 of an inch.

Other than that, and the lack of information regarding screw sizes, things are going pretty well. Once I start getting the wiring installed and the neck bolted on, I'll start posting progress pics.
 
Hey man, welcome to the forum, you should contact the Warmoth guys directly if you've got some issues, they're awesome, & will help you sort out whatever issues you're having. As for the screws thing, I've never had any issues, I've just bought my screws from Warmoth along with the rest of my build, and I haven't had any issues.
Anyways, welcome, and hope it all works out for you, I love firebirds, excited to see yours!  :headbang:

:occasion14:
 
Every issue I've had with Warmoth, I contacted them first.  I didn't blow up the forum with posts before contacting them.  Is it also possible Warmoth did follow the mini hum route specs and Lollar didn't?
 
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom said:
Every issue I've had with Warmoth, I contacted them first.  I didn't blow up the forum with posts before contacting them.  Is it also possible Warmoth did follow the mini hum route specs and Lollar didn't?

I did contact them. Unfortunately that was Fri night. Anyways, I do feel like an ass here a bit. It appears  that the dimensions of the pickup may be larger than Gibson or SD-based mini buckers (2.7 inches wide, vs 2.655 on Gibsons). I automatically assumed that when they say Lollar Firebirds are mini humbuckers, that they are in fact.....mini humbuckers.

I've removed any "offending content", and will try to be on my best behavior  :sign13:. I've had many setbacks/delays with building this thing, including a production error they made, so the pickup fit thing ticked me off more so than usual. Anyways, apologies to Warmoth if I was too harsh (I think I was).

Anyways, I'm going to measure the pickup in a bit to re-confirm that I'm right. My adult temper tantrum is over  :guitarplayer2:
 
Funny you say that.  There was another Firebird owner that had to modify the Warmoth located control holes.  Using Gibson style speed knobs, they wouldn't clear the raised center portion.  They've since fixed it, but it's a reminder that their non-Fender stuff seems to be an approximation, whereas their bread and butter Fender stuff is dead on.  Minus the control hole location examples, other approximations seem to be from taking a smaller scale Gibson body and mating it to longer scale Fender style neck pocket.  It's why the LP stop tail, Explorer cutaway, and few other things make you scratch your head.
 
Found this on the Lollar site while searching about the size of Firebird mini-hums vs Gibson vs Seymour Duncan (cause I'm always curious about stuff like this)

"One thing to note if you’re thinking about Lollar-izing a guitar with these mini-marvels is our sizes are bit larger than the vintage specs. Our pickups covers for Mini-Humbuckers and Firebirds are slightly longer than vintage mini or firebird pickup covers."

I found it in this blog post which I came across trying to find out about Firebird PU's. http://www.lollarguitars.com/blog/2012/04/small-in-stature-big-in-tone/
(the blog post gives information on the dimensions)

But at the bottom of the Blog post I also saw this:

"New covers are 3/32” longer than vintage pickups but they will still fit in a vintage route with a new size ring mounts you can order from us." But you seem to be saying the route is not big enough. . .

Anyway in case that helps

 
ezas said:
... guitar making is filled with pitfalls like this ...

And this is where the fun is. Really.

If putting a guitar together was no more than "paint by numbers" I do not really think many of us would bother do it more than once.

Load up on patience. Overcome the obstacles. And most important - enjoy the process. Because as soon as you have finished this guitar you will probably want to make another.
 
SustainerPlayer said:
ezas said:
... guitar making is filled with pitfalls like this ...

And this is where the fun is. Really.

If putting a guitar together was no more than "paint by numbers" I do not really think many of us would bother do it more than once.

Load up on patience. Overcome the obstacles. And most important - enjoy the process. Because as soon as you have finished this guitar you will probably want to make another.

Except I edited that line out after I discovered the info on the Lollar site and went back and edited my post. LOL

But I like what you added to it about loading up on patience, etc.
 
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom said:
Funny you say that.  There was another Firebird owner that had to modify the Warmoth located control holes.  Using Gibson style speed knobs, they wouldn't clear the raised center portion.  They've since fixed it, but it's a reminder that their non-Fender stuff seems to be an approximation, whereas their bread and butter Fender stuff is dead on.  Minus the control hole location examples, other approximations seem to be from taking a smaller scale Gibson body and mating it to longer scale Fender style neck pocket.  It's why the LP stop tail, Explorer cutaway, and few other things make you scratch your head.

That's funny you mentioned that, as I don't think they've really fixed it that well. I'm trying to use these bell knobs (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Knobs/Bell_knobs/Metal_Cap_Bell_Knob.html), and it appears that the 2 closest to the raised center laminate are rubbing against the center laminate. Sucks, but I might be able to use them. I'll find out soon.

UPDATE: I don't think they fixed it AT ALL. I found the original thread regarding this, and the holes are in the exact same place still. That's a little silly.

As for the pickups -- yeah they definitely DONT fit. The width of the pickups is just barely too wide (probably 3/32" as a matter of fact), and the mounting hole "ears" on the side don't fit into the rout either. I'm going to have to widen both the rout itself, and the "ear"-portion as well just a tad. Nothing a dremel sanding bit shouldnt be able to handle.
 
Alright, time for an update.

I had time to run out to my folks' house to borrow the Dremel. My first plan to use hand files had quickly failed, so I took a small, thin bit that has no tip to attack it. It just has spirals like a drill, but they're for chewing through wood. Anyways, after about an hour of careful work, I finished it up without issue or disaster. I applied a thin clear coat on top of my work to help seal the wood.

I had 3 close calls where, despite masking off the area, I managed to make the Dremel hop up to the top of the body. Luckily, all 3 spots were just on the outside of the rout, where the chrome mounting ring will go for the mini buckers. If it had jumped 1/8 inch further, I would've been in trouble, and had visible damage.

Anyways, the minibuckers now fit (the side "ear" routs have to be expanded too, not just the main bucker casing).

Here's some pics of it in its semi-basic assembly. I opted to go ahead and bolt on the neck, as I want to see how it looks and holds before wiring it up. And that was the weird thing -- holding it and running my fingers across the frets. This thing is so far from how a Strat feels, it's absurd. I think I'm really going to have a bit of a learning curve with playing on a Firebird, as the neck is far out, the scale is different, and the strings start much further up the body. Strap button placement is going to be key.

sak4x.jpg

pc1pr.jpg
 
OK, update time....

I got the pickups fully installed and secured, as well as the volume and tone pots. Luckily, it looks like the knobs will just barely fit. They're actually rubbing against the raised center laminate, but I think it'll be ok. Only time will tell though.

I was going to do the wiring myself til I looked at how much room I'd have to work with, since I'm trying to use paper-in-oil capacitors. They're huge, and it's starting to look like I can't fit all the electronics in there. I may have to settle on a modern small cap. I'm going to let the guitar shop do the wiring, since I need to drop it off there for a set up anyways.

Here's an updated pic. I just need to drill for and install the pickguard and the jack.
c8mby.jpg
 
There is not consensus on this point, but many (including yours truly) believe that the SOUND of a paper-in-oil cap will be the same as a mylar cap will be the same as a ceramic cap, etc., etc., ad nauseam ad infinitum. 


If your preference for the old-fashioned cap is driven by a notion that it will sound more awesome (as opposed to a visual aesthetic when you look in the cavity), I suggest that you may be convincing yourself of something that ain't been proven, and probably never will be.  Save some money and some headache by using the modern part.


But that is for sure the nicest firebird I've seen in recent years.  Lovely axe.
 
I'm using it at this point because I had already bought a Firebird wiring kit from RS Guitarworks like 2 months ago.

I'm trying to avoid using new one's, but I'm realistic about the fact that it may not be feasible. Regardless, it's the pickups that primarily make the sound of the guitar, so I'm OK with whatever they have to do.

I'm going to get the pickguard and everything else installed tonight, then I'm going to drop it by the music store tomorrow for an estimate, and probably to have it wired and set up.

Thanks for the comments. It's a beauty, although it's gonna need a fresh coat of Meguiar's Mirror Glaze polish after it's all done. I can already see plenty of micro surface scratches from working on it. That's inevitable though, unless you mask the entire body. I can't wait to play this thing....and LOUD.
 
nickmv said:
I'm using [a paper/oil cap] at this point because I had already bought a Firebird wiring kit from RS Guitarworks like 2 months ago.

I'm trying to avoid using new one's, but I'm realistic about the fact that it may not be feasible. Regardless, it's the pickups that primarily make the sound of the guitar, so I'm OK with whatever they have to do.

Paper over oil caps are designed for high voltage circuits. They typically have a very high dielectric rating, so they can live in electrically harsh environments. Because they contain oil, they need some serious sealing so as to prevent leaking and drying out and thereby changing value and/or destroying surrounding circuitry. It's usually an aluminum can with an epoxy plug. So, they're very expensive relative to most other caps, due to the tricky construction.

Guitar players and amp builders sometimes equate the high price with superior tonal characteristics. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Capacitors don't have tonal characteristics. They have what's called "capacity", which is dependent on a number of variables. In any event, a .022μf capacitor has .022μf of capacity regardless of its construction/packaging. In other words, there is no difference between a .022μf mica, .022μf ceramic, .022μf mylar, .022μf paper, etc. capacitor. They are all .022μf capacitors, and will all behave exactly the same way. That behavior is called "reactance" in an AC circuit.

Now, before anyone gets excited, it's true that there are other differences. For instance, a rolled cap will introduce some inductance. It's tiny, but it's there. An axial lead cap will also have impedance factors that are different than one that's terminated radially. The size and makeup of the leads will change resistance values, adding yet another variable to the equation.

However, all those variables only have an effect at very high frequencies. Frequencies that a guitar will never in a million years generate, or that even a bat could hear. We're talking up in the megahertz/gigahertz range, while guitars are down in the very low kilohertz range. We're also talking about millivolts of working range, so no way do you need any kind of heroic dielectric strength.

There is no doubt that some people can hear the difference between various capacitors, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with their construction. It has to do with the surprisingly wide variations in the advertised or marked value of caps vs. the actual value. Capacitor tolerances can be surprisingly wide, so that what you think is a .022μf cap may actually be anywhere between .017μf or .029μf. You think a .022μf Sprague "Orange Drop" sounds better than a .022μf "Bumblebee" from 45 years ago (or vice-versa)? Chances are about 99.9% or better that you're not comparing .022μf caps. They'll have different values, and so will react differently in a given circuit. If you simply changed one .022μf Orange Drop after another for the same thing, you'd find that they all "sound" different, even though they're theoretically the same part.

So, save yourself some grief. Buy the little ceramic rascals in the value you think is right that are the size of tomato seed, and call it a love story. They're only $.50 cents if you buy them wrong, less if you do it right. If anybody asks why your fiddle sounds so badass, tell 'em you sold your soul to a Portuguese Shaman <grin>
 
There's a pretty simple answer to the whole capacitor type thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1vXoLXIejY#t=1m1s

Grab yourself some normal small orange drop or mylar caps (I don't like ceramic disc ones simply because I find orange drops tend to be closer to their stated value) and save yourself the headache.


Loving the axe by the way, the non-reverse headstock on the reverse body really does look fantastic. Dare I say I'm very tempted to try that myself, if I can ever work out a way to get Firebirds to balance well on my usual strap.
 
Update: I dropped it off at my local music shop for them to do the wiring and the setup. I decided to give up on the wiring and just dropped the remaining parts in a bag for the guy to work with. I have a feeling he won't even use the paper-in-oil caps I provided, as it just crowds the cavity too much.

Next pics I'll post are going to be the finished product. I gotta get some Meguiar's Mirror Glaze to make it super shiny and get off the light surface scratches from assembling it.
 
UPDATE: The guitar is ready. Now, if I can just survive the next 4 hrs til I get off work to go pick it up.

Pics to come soon!
 
Alrighty, she's finally complete.....well, 99.9%. I gotta put strap buttons on it soon. The guy who did the wiring and setup did a great job, and even ground down the 2 knobs that were rubbing on center raised laminate (Warmoth really needs to move it out).

After playing with it for a while, I'm much more comfortable with it than when I was holding it when it was stringless. Neck feels great, fretboard nice and smooth. I'm enjoying Pau Ferro so far. Anyways, after I put some Mirror Glaze on this thing, I'll take some high-res shots with an SLR and get it posted for Guitar of the Month competition.


 

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it's stunning how good those look with the correct oriented headstock.  that's almost enough to make me want to get rid of a current axe to get one, almost.
 
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