Dyeing a figured hard maple neck

[docteurseb]

I read dying hard maple necks is difficult. I'm told it's not impossible though, it's just that the look could be unpredictable as some pieces may turn blotchy.

Figured maple might be less of an issue ?
Has anyone tried doing that to a Warmoth flame maple neck with great, or awful, results ?

To keep it simple(r) I would probably use a non-maple fingerboard, and only dye the back/headstock.

Also Warmoth necks may be using a minimalistic sealer to unfinished necks, but I suppose a slight sanding should be sufficient to get rid of it.

 

[Cagey]

Actually, figured Maple gets its figuring from end grain exposure, so inconsistency is more pronounced. It's kinda what you'd call a "feature", since the end grain absorbs more dye and makes the figure stand out more. What is sometimes done with woods like Maple is rather than dye them, you use a tinted clear. That way, you're guaranteed an even coating.

 

[docteurseb]

Thanks! That inconsistency is fine with me!
It wasn't clear if that's what people were referring to as far as the color turning blotchy, if so I can see why this can turn really bad on plain maple.

Tinted clear would be an option but not quite the look I'm after (and I don't have the spray equipment for that). I'd like to get a similar look as these, while doing the same to the body's top:

 

[dmraco]

You beat me to it.  PRS and Kiesel (carvin) are doing it with success....even flamed fretboards.  I have been wanting to try it too

 

[bagman67]

My suspicion is the Kiesel fretboard thing may well be a vacuum-chamber thing to get the wood colored all the way through.  That would allow them to shape it and not worry about losing color when they apply tools to it, like during fret installation and finishing.

 

[docteurseb]

PRS makes it look easy enough, what could go wrong ? 
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wew-NPwc1B4[/youtube]

 

[Cagey]

Something to note in that video is that even though it's Maple, they're not worried about "splotchiness" because that's not the final finish. If there's a part 2 video, you'll see them sanding most of that dye off, leaving only end grain impregnated and highlighted. Another color may be applied, perhaps in a burst pattern, then perhaps a transparent color finish and clear over that, then finish sanding and buffing after that.

Now that any significant OEM has CNC machines to do most of the heavy lifting as far as cutting/shaping/routing/drilling parts, the finish is arguably the most labor intensive and time consuming part of building an electric guitar. It's part of why you see so many DIY types just slobbering some kind of oil on their wood and calling it a love story. Finishing is a real job.

 

[dmraco]

Finishing is a real job.

Yep.  I have loved my last to builds with a plain stain clear finish.  Barely any prep, finish goes on, 3-5 light coats.  Done.  MAYBE hit with some 1000 grit to know off any bumps.

 

[stratamania]

It's part of why you see so many DIY types just slobbering some kind of oil on their wood and calling it a love story. Finishing is a real job.

Finishing is a real job, but a real job can be made of oil finishes and a hack job can just as easily be made with nitro or poly. It's not the medium its the application.

 

[Cagey]

That's true. I'm just exposing my own negative bias toward oil finishes even though I've seen some fantastic results.

 

[stratamania]

That's true. I'm just exposing my own negative bias toward oil finishes even though I've seen some fantastic results.

No worries.

 

[docteurseb]

I'm only interested in the dye process, the clear coat would be done by a professional guitar finishing shop to get it done right.

I realize they are sanding the neck again to possibly add another stain (rinse and repeat for some of their color schemes) + clear coat, or color coat+clear coat.

It's just that I fail to see the challenge in the dyeing process in this particular video, assuming their necks are in fact made of hard maple. Could it be that they use big leaf/soft maple (it's suppose to still be harder than mahogany, a fine wood neck) ?

I dyed a tele flame maple top a few years ago and that was quite easy to get good looking results.
It's just that based on what I read and was told over the years I was under the impression that dyeing a hard maple neck would be bound for failure.

 

[Cagey]

I wouldn't say it's bound for failure. It's just that it happens too often to be comfortable with pretending it won't happen to you. So, you plan for it in order to avoid it. Kinda like smoking cigarettes. Only a percentage of users get lung cancer, but that's not the way to bet.

 

[bagman67]

I'm with Cagey, with the additional proviso that if you dye the neck and hand it off to someone else to apply topcoats , you add the complication of someone whose vision of the desired outcome may not match your own.

 

[Cagey]

The concern about "blotchiness" (or whatever you wanna call it) you hear about pertains more to regular Maple. If you take a plain, flat Maple board with no particular figuring to it and stain it, the results may well be disappointing. Figured Maple is a little different in that you're going to remove most of the stain after it's applied. The object of the exercise is to accentuate the grain, not change the wood's color. You apply the stain, it soaks deeper into the end grain, then you remove all the surface coloring with abrasives and only the figure is left. It's an attractive affect. If you want more/different color after that, you keep applying/removing stain to get where you want to be. If you want to change the overall color of the wood, a tinted finish is the better way to go. It just sits on the surface, so the idiosyncrasies of the wood's grain structure aren't really going to be an issue.

 

[docteurseb]

Thanks, there's at least room for success

I'll probably give it a shot, if I can convince myself a dyed neck on a  Strat/Tele won't look too much out of place.
A highly figured neck will be $350-450, finishing excluded, so it's not a cheap experiment.

I was thinking I may get away with: black+color dye, sand, lighter color dye, then clear coat.
Hence the reason for letting a pro shop do the clear coat. If I go with a color coat, it's hard indeed hard to know how it'll turn out.

 

[Cagey]

Something else worth considering is a roasted high-grade curly Maple, sorta like this...

...perhaps with a black Ebony fretboard. Gets you a great and obvious appearance with no dye, and it doesn't require a finish at all. Burnish that, put some stainless frets on it and dress 'em properly, and you'll have a neck that's quite likely unparalleled in your experience.

 

[docteurseb]

Thanks for the suggestion, I agree it would be the right choice for a great playing neck.

I have an ebony neck, it is unparalleled
(http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=26132.0)

In this case though, I'm going with form over function as I'm first and foremost interested in learning the dyeing process of a neck.
I'll limit the playability impact of a gloss finish by at least using an ebony or rosewood fingerboard. It'll also be easier to stain as a first attempt.

 

[Tonar8352]

If I was staining a Warmoth Flame Maple neck I would do it like this.
1. I would order the neck with no sealer from Warmoth, if it is a Showcase neck I would lightly sand it with 320 and then wipe it down real good with acetone.
2. I'd use MEK dyes mixed with lacquer thinner and lacquer retarder to make my stain. The retarder will keep it from flashing off to fast so it will be more uniform.
3. I would make an applicator of rags wrapped in another rag and then soak it pretty good,  tamp it on another dry rag so it will not drip or run onto the wood. You can see in the PRS video where he does that before taking the rag soaked in dye to the wood.
4. Once it's stained follow a normal finish schedule.

Make sure to save some to of the stain in case you get a burn through so you have something to repair the color.

 

[dmraco]

If I was staining a Warmoth Flame Maple neck I would do it like this.
1. I would order the neck with no sealer from Warmoth, if it is a Showcase neck I would lightly sand it with 320 and then wipe it down real good with acetone.
2. I'd use MEK dyes mixed with lacquer thinner and lacquer retarder to make my stain. The retarder will keep it from flashing off to fast so it will be more uniform.
3. I would make an applicator of rags wrapped in another rag and then soak it pretty good,  tamp it on another dry rag so it will not drip or run onto the wood. You can see in the PRS video where he does that before taking the rag soaked in dye to the wood.
4. Once it's stained follow a normal finish schedule.

Make sure to save some to of the stain in case you get a burn through so you have something to repair the color.

Tonar...If would are planning on sanding after dying, would it make sense to mix the dyes with water?  I find that water will raise the grain a bit and get a little deeper penetration.  If you are back sanding I do not care so much about raising the grain as sanding will make it smooth again.    Since we are dealing with a neck here it may help.