Direct Mounted pickups

[drewfx]

You know it just occurred to me that maybe we're on entirely the wrong track here. We're assuming any possible difference must be caused by the changing relationship between the strings and the PU.

It seems to me it's much more likely a direct mounted PU is getting more vibrational energy from the body, causing it's coils to vibrate and microphonically pick up the body vibrations.

 

[dNA]

It seems to me it's much more likely a direct mounted PU is getting more vibrational energy from the body, causing it's coils to vibrate and microphonically pick up the body vibrations.

I thought it was fairly clear that the pickup vibrating will not generate any signal. The pickup vibrating wouldn't cause any kind of disturbance in the magnetic field, would it?

 

[drewfx]

Not the PU vibrating - the PU's coils vibrating can act like a microphone. That's why they are usually wax potted to prevent feedback nowadays.

 

[Jusatele]

It seems to me it's much more likely a direct mounted PU is getting more vibrational energy from the body, causing it's coils to vibrate and microphonically pick up the body vibrations.

I thought it was fairly clear that the pickup vibrating will not generate any signal. The pickup vibrating wouldn't cause any kind of disturbance in the magnetic field, would it?

Yes it would, if there is metal around it then the field would be effect such as the metal around it vibrating, it is the intensity and harmonics of the vibration that give us the sound. So you can see it may not give a sound like a string vibrating, but it will give us a signal of some sort. So if you had strings on the guitar and the pickup vibrates it will cause disturbances in the field even if the strings are still

 

[Jusatele]

You know it just occurred to me that maybe we're on entirely the wrong track here. We're assuming any possible difference must be caused by the changing relationship between the strings and the PU.

It seems to me it's much more likely a direct mounted PU is getting more vibrational energy from the body, causing it's coils to vibrate and microphonically pick up the body vibrations.

As Stated, modern pickups, or at least good modern pickups are potted so they cannot operate as a microphone.

 

[Jusatele]

The funniest thing about this thread to me is, when I read some of the arguments, I feel like they suggest that the "best" mounting style is the opposite of the one the person intends to argue in favor of.  :laughing7:

And though I'm skeptical that any mounting differences could make much of an audible difference, even if it does, "different" and "better" are not the same thing.

the way to cure this is to go ahead and play a song as you record it, and then solid mount your pickups and then do it again and post up the video and sound files
I think it would cure all skepticism

 

[tangent]

It is important to note that the microphonic effect only happens when the coil vibrates independently from the magnets, in that case the coil is technically moving through the field just like the strings do.  Even though the movement is very small in comparison, it can generate a significant response due to the number of turns in the coil.

The entire pickup vibrating as a whole will not have the same effect.

It seems to me it's much more likely a direct mounted PU is getting more vibrational energy from the body, causing it's coils to vibrate and microphonically pick up the body vibrations.

I thought it was fairly clear that the pickup vibrating will not generate any signal. The pickup vibrating wouldn't cause any kind of disturbance in the magnetic field, would it?

Yes it would, if there is metal around it then the field would be effect such as the metal around it vibrating, it is the intensity and harmonics of the vibration that give us the sound. So you can see it may not give a sound like a string vibrating, but it will give us a signal of some sort. So if you had strings on the guitar and the pickup vibrates it will cause disturbances in the field even if the strings are still

 

[The Norwegian Guy]

There is NO difference in tone between a direct-mounted pickup and a ring-mounted pickup.

I direct-mounted the pickups on my Warmoth because I like the way it looks, AND because I have a tendency to crack or break the corners on plastic pickup rings with my picking technique (maybe it's bad technique).

I don't really like the way the pickup wobbles back & forth on the two mounting screws. The ring-mounted pickups don't do it as much.

I disagree with this statement.

 

[Jusatele]

It is important to note that the microphonic effect only happens when the coil vibrates independently from the magnets, in that case the coil is technically moving through the field just like the strings do.  Even though the movement is very small in comparison, it can generate a significant response due to the number of turns in the coil.

The entire pickup vibrating as a whole will not have the same effect.

It seems to me it's much more likely a direct mounted PU is getting more vibrational energy from the body, causing it's coils to vibrate and microphonically pick up the body vibrations.

I thought it was fairly clear that the pickup vibrating will not generate any signal. The pickup vibrating wouldn't cause any kind of disturbance in the magnetic field, would it?

Yes it would, if there is metal around it then the field would be effect such as the metal around it vibrating, it is the intensity and harmonics of the vibration that give us the sound. So you can see it may not give a sound like a string vibrating, but it will give us a signal of some sort. So if you had strings on the guitar and the pickup vibrates it will cause disturbances in the field even if the strings are still

Did you bother to read my response?
If there is any ferromagnetic material around it will effect the field, strings are ferromagnetic. yes a vibrating pickups field  will be effected by the strings

 

[drewfx]

You know it just occurred to me that maybe we're on entirely the wrong track here. We're assuming any possible difference must be caused by the changing relationship between the strings and the PU.

It seems to me it's much more likely a direct mounted PU is getting more vibrational energy from the body, causing it's coils to vibrate and microphonically pick up the body vibrations.

As Stated, modern pickups, or at least good modern pickups are potted so they cannot operate as a microphone.

Wouldn't that imply that potted PU's wouldn't ever feed back under any circumstances?

I believe they still pick up microphonically - potting just makes them much less sensitive to it. And vibrations passed from the body are going to be much greater than feedback-causing vibrations passed acoustically from an amp.

 

[Cagey]

Not the PU vibrating - the PU's coils vibrating can act like a microphone. That's why they are usually wax potted to prevent feedback nowadays.

Coils usually won't act like a microphone, but a metal or metal plated cover will, since there'll be changes in the flux density surrounding the coil if the cover moves (vibrates) at all. That's why they pot those. Potting uncovered coils is a waste of time. Some companies do it just to say they did, because some people believe it makes a difference.

 

[Cagey]

I believe they still pick up microphonically - potting just makes them much less sensitive to it. And vibrations passed from the body are going to be much greater than feedback-causing vibrations passed acoustically from an amp.

It depends. If you're playing at whisper volumes in your bedroom, that's true. Stand in front of a Marshall turned up to 11, and that amp is going to bang the snot out of that body and cause it to feed back. Mr. Hendrix got famous on that effect, and the tradition has been continued ever since. Similarly, if you have a particularly lightweight, resonant body it'll react to external influence a lot faster than it will from anything you're doing with the strings. Taken to an extreme, you can have pickups potted in lead or tar, and if you install them in something like any Gibson ES series or an old Byrdland, and it's gonna feedback like a cat getting its tail stomped almost no matter what you do. Ted Nugent got famous on that effect. They didn't have Tube Screamers back in those days - they had lotsa watts made from real tubes feeding tons of speakers that were banging their guitars into a frenzy of sympathetic vibration.

 

[Alfang]

Hey Tangent, I know all that stuff too, I was mearly trying to explain it in laymens terms, I understand the strings are cutting fluxlines and aiding and repelling lines of flux to increase and decrease their flow, this change is picked up by the windings and transmitted as a signal etc... I get all that. but the string is nevertheless moving in front of that magnet, and that is pushing and pulling on the magnet itself albeit a small amount of course.

I think many of us are saying the same thing here, the only question is, does a direct mounted pickup sound diferent than a bezel or spring mounted pup, I say it does, and thats MY opinion,

So many people talk about the diferent sounds of fretboard woods, and body woods, and nut material etc...if people think all those make a tonal diference, then why not the mounting method of a pup?

When I solid mount my pups, the sound seems a bit clearer on each note when playing chords, brighter, open whatever. maybe its my subconscience I don't know. But I like it, and for me thats what matters.
I'd also add, that it depends on the amount of crunch you dial into your amp, on clean channels I dont hear as much diference, on dirty channel, it clears or defines the notes better. in other words the more sound coming back at the guitar, the better solid mount works.

 

[drewfx]

I believe they still pick up microphonically - potting just makes them much less sensitive to it. And vibrations passed from the body are going to be much greater than feedback-causing vibrations passed acoustically from an amp.

It depends. If you're playing at whisper volumes in your bedroom, that's true. Stand in front of a Marshall turned up to 11, and that amp is going to bang the snot out of that body and cause it to feed back. Mr. Hendrix got famous on that effect, and the tradition has been continued ever since. Similarly, if you have a particularly lightweight, resonant body it'll react to external influence a lot faster than it will from anything you're doing with the strings. Taken to an extreme, you can have pickups potted in lead or tar, and if you install them in something like any Gibson ES series or an old Byrdland, and it's gonna feedback like a cat getting its tail stomped almost no matter what you do. Ted Nugent got famous on that effect. They didn't have Tube Screamers back in those days - they had lotsa watts made from real tubes feeding tons of speakers that were banging their guitars into a frenzy of sympathetic vibration.

The point about feedback is this - it has nothing to do with the strings' magnetic relationship to the PU (well of course the strings may trigger it) - it has to do with the PU responding to it's own signal from the amp. The point about passing vibrations acoustically is just that it's inherently less efficient to transmit vibration through the air (which is exactly why we need those cranked Marshalls :rock-on. Comparing the acoustic volume of a cranked amp to the acoustic volume of the strings gives you a good idea difference in power involved. You may be able to get more body/PU vibration from the amp, but it's only because you're using huge amounts of power to do it.

But regardless, we know that the PU can respond directly to vibrations from the amp and produce an audible result (feedback).  My theory then is that vibrations transmitted from the body to the PU are causing any audible difference direct mounting methods are said to produce.

That seems a much more likely explanation to me than the minute magnetic interactions between barely moving PU's and the strings we all discussed earlier. And I'm not really arguing whether or not there is any difference, just what I think the most likely explanation would be if there was one.

Oh, and +1 to Jimi and Ted, but let's not forget Jeff and Pete and all the others either arty07: arty07:

 

[lafromla1]

:icon_scratch:

 

[Cagey]

The point about feedback is this - it has nothing to do with the strings' magnetic relationship to the PU (well of course the strings may trigger it) - it has to do with the PU responding to it's own signal from the amp.

Sure it does. The pickup can't hear the amp or the guitar's body. All it can hear are variations in it's magnetic field. In order for that to happen, either the strings or the pickup have to move in relation to each other. If you took the strings off your guitar, your buddy could turn a whole wall of Marshalls up to 11 right next to you, and your guitar wouldn't feed back because even though the pickup would be moving in response to the beating it's getting, there'd be nothing in the field getting disturbed. But, put the strings back on, and even if you mute them, then your buddy's wall of amps are going to bang your guitar's body, which will move the pickup relative to the strings, the field is disturbed, it generates current, and it'll take off on you.

 

[Disco Scottie]

When I solid mount my pups, the sound seems a bit clearer on each note when playing chords, brighter, open whatever. maybe its my subconscience I don't know. But I like it, and for me thats what matters.

Have you had the pups mounted both ways on the same guitar? I would think that's the only way you could make a definitive judgment.

 

[drewfx]

The point about feedback is this - it has nothing to do with the strings' magnetic relationship to the PU (well of course the strings may trigger it) - it has to do with the PU responding to it's own signal from the amp.

Sure it does. The pickup can't hear the amp or the guitar's body. All it can hear are variations in it's magnetic field. In order for that to happen, either the strings or the pickup have to move in relation to each other. If you took the strings off your guitar, your buddy could turn a whole wall of Marshalls up to 11 right next to you, and your guitar wouldn't feed back because even though the pickup would be moving in response to the beating it's getting, there'd be nothing in the field getting disturbed. But, put the strings back on, and even if you mute them, then your buddy's wall of amps are going to bang your guitar's body, which will move the pickup relative to the strings, the field is disturbed, it generates current, and it'll take off on you.

Except I just tried holding a guitar body with no neck (and no strings obviously) up to my little tiny bedroom amp and it feeds back quite easily. Didn't even need to fire up the Marshall.

As I said before, PU's are somewhat microphonic, but you don't have to take my word for it - just try it yourself. They will feed back quite easily sans strings. They will also make noise on their own if you tap them (and yes even when you tap them with something non-magnetic, non-conductive).

 

[Strat Avenger]

There is NO difference in tone between a direct-mounted pickup and a ring-mounted pickup.

I direct-mounted the pickups on my Warmoth because I like the way it looks, AND because I have a tendency to crack or break the corners on plastic pickup rings with my picking technique (maybe it's bad technique).

I don't really like the way the pickup wobbles back & forth on the two mounting screws. The ring-mounted pickups don't do it as much.

I disagree with this statement.

Damn foreigners!   :laughing11: :laughing11:  Actually, you're probably right. It's probably just not as noticeable with the ring hiding the surrounding area.

The difference in my case, is that the pickup was mounted with springs under it, as opposed to springs on the top of it under a plastic ring. I kind'a don't like the wobble, but I wanted my pickup to be adjustable, so I used springs under it. I am sure I could come up with a better way of mounting it (more stable), but I'm feeling lazy right now and don't feel like messing with it.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

"This one goes to eleven".