Direct mounted humbuckers, screws?

JonatanOTG

Junior Member
Messages
185
So the local guitar guy convinced me that the best way to direct mount humbuckers is the "Van Halen-method" aka wood screws straight into the body. This wasn't what I originally had been thinking about but ok, let's go for it!

One problem though. Unlike most guys, it seems, I really don't want to screw up (see what I did there?  :icon_jokercolor:) the pickups just because I want to use wood screws...

I haven't had the time to look into this any further but are there smaller wood screws that doesn't require that I enlarge the mounting holes in the pickup?

If I find a wood screw like this one...
S17.jpg
... with the same diameter as a standard humbucker mounting screw as this one...
S20.jpg
... could it be that simple...?
 
No. One is a wood screw, and the other is machine screw. Different thread pitch, different thread type, different shaft design, etc. Never the twain shall meet.

You could use threaded inserts to mount the pickups, which would allow you to use machine screws. But, you'd still have to remove the threads from the pickup mounting plate to allow the screw to turn freely. You'd also need to modify the springs if you want to leave adjustability in the picture. This is actually the best way to wood-mount the pickups, but is rarely done. Most guys go that route so they can hard-mount the things, so they use washers or spacers to set pickup height.

Long story short, wood-mounting pickups is going to wreck your pickup's mounting design. This generally isn't a problem unless you aren't sure if you're going to like the pickups you've chosen. They'll have zero resale value when you pull them. Not that pickups have a great deal of resale value anyway, I'm just saying.

Unless you don't have any choice, there's really no good reason to mount the pickups that way. Magnetic pickups aren't sensitive to to vibration, so contrary to teenybopper opinion, you're not going to get anything out of the deal tone-wise.
 
Just use some pickup ring mounting screws. They work great and do not cause any permanent damage to the pickup. :headbang1:
 
A few notes based on my experiences trying to achieve this:

Cagey said:
You could use threaded inserts to mount the pickups, which would allow you to use machine screws
This is of course true, but I could not find the correct threaded inserts for standard humbucker mounting machine screws ANYWHERE. I think in fact that they may not exist. So even if you do go this route, you need to drill out your humbucker base plate to take the new screws.

But, you'd still have to remove the threads from the pickup mounting plate to allow the screw to turn freely.
I actually ground the thread out of the mounting screws for about 5mm closest to the head of the screw. This means you can screw the screw into the pickup, and then when you get all the way in it will start turning freely.

You'd also need to modify the springs if you want to leave adjustability in the picture.
Yep, or use surgical tubing of course.

Unless you don't have any choice, there's really no good reason to mount the pickups that way. Magnetic pickups aren't sensitive to to vibration, so contrary to teenybopper opinion, you're not going to get anything out of the deal tone-wise.
Well, there's aesthetics, which is why I did it. But I absolutely don't believe the tone things. People genuinely do think pickups are microphones sometimes. But there you go.

So how did I actually do it in the end?

Well, this shouldn't work and one day it will, at least in theory, stop working. But I started to get sick of looking for ways to do this without permanently screwing up the pickup.

What I did was I got some scrap wood, and drilled a few test holes of varying sizes, each one very slightly bevelled at the top with a countersink. One of them, I forget the diameter, turned out to be fine: I could screw a standard humbucker mounting machine screw into the hole, and then dangle a large weight from it without it pulling out of the wood. Of course the problem here is that the threads on machine screws are tiny and so, if I continue to screw the screws in and out of the hole, in theory the hole will eventually strip.

Next I had to slightly shorten the mounting screws, as if you're going from the baseplate into the wood there is way too much length in the screw - you'd be drilling nearly all the way through the body. I also had to do the modification I mentioned above - remove a bit of the thread on the screw near the head so that once it's through the baseplate it can turn freely. This means that the baseplate's threaded hole remains intact.

So to mount the pickups, I drilled the two holes in the guitar, and then screwed the pickup in. I put some foam under the pickup and surgical tubing over the screws to provide adjustability (I wasn't after a hard mount, just the looks). This works fine although I didn't put enough foam in so the pickup is still a little bit wobbly.

I ended up using the exact same method for the single coils on the guitar too - using single coil screws. They're modern pickups so they actually have metal threaded inserts in the casing for the screw. So I couldn't actually fit a wood screw through them if I wanted to.

I have had pickups in and out of the guitar about 5 or 6 times, and adjusted their heights quite a lot, and there's no sign of the holes getting stripped at all yet. If they do get stripped, I'll probably just fill them up with toothpicks and start again, as it works nicely and doesn't affect the pickups. I did paint the mounting legs on the humbucker black to match the rest of the guitar, but obviously that would just rub off.

It looks OK:

YellowStrat_zps3e8e145f.jpg
 
Thanks for the replies.

Jumble Jumble said:
Cagey said:
You could use threaded inserts to mount the pickups, which would allow you to use machine screws
This is of course true, but I could not find the correct threaded inserts for standard humbucker mounting machine screws ANYWHERE.

Yeah I was actually considering threaded inserts but same here, neither me or local guitar guy knew were to find such. Also it would take a lot of extra work to get it exactly right.

So how did I actually do it in the end?

Well, this shouldn't work and one day it will, at least in theory, stop working. But I started to get sick of looking for ways to do this without permanently screwing up the pickup.

What I did was I got some scrap wood, and drilled a few test holes of varying sizes, each one very slightly bevelled at the top with a countersink. One of them, I forget the diameter, turned out to be fine: I could screw a standard humbucker mounting machine screw into the hole, and then dangle a large weight from it without it pulling out of the wood. Of course the problem here is that the threads on machine screws are tiny and so, if I continue to screw the screws in and out of the hole, in theory the hole will eventually strip.

Next I had to slightly shorten the mounting screws, as if you're going from the baseplate into the wood there is way too much length in the screw - you'd be drilling nearly all the way through the body. I also had to do the modification I mentioned above - remove a bit of the thread on the screw near the head so that once it's through the baseplate it can turn freely. This means that the baseplate's threaded hole remains intact.

So to mount the pickups, I drilled the two holes in the guitar, and then screwed the pickup in. I put some foam under the pickup and surgical tubing over the screws to provide adjustability (I wasn't after a hard mount, just the looks). This works fine although I didn't put enough foam in so the pickup is still a little bit wobbly.

I ended up using the exact same method for the single coils on the guitar too - using single coil screws. They're modern pickups so they actually have metal threaded inserts in the casing for the screw. So I couldn't actually fit a wood screw through them if I wanted to.

I have had pickups in and out of the guitar about 5 or 6 times, and adjusted their heights quite a lot, and there's no sign of the holes getting stripped at all yet. If they do get stripped, I'll probably just fill them up with toothpicks and start again, as it works nicely and doesn't affect the pickups. I did paint the mounting legs on the humbucker black to match the rest of the guitar, but obviously that would just rub off.

It looks OK:

Sounds like there is a small chance that one could pull it off with humbucker mounting screws after all. And yes, it looks very good!  :icon_thumright:
 
Yeah, it can definitely be done. I expect it partly depends on the wood: I was going into a Swamp Ash body, which is quite hard. I can imagine doing the same thing in a basswood body might end up with stripping the holes more quickly.
 
Very clever Jumble with taking the threads out on the top of the machine screw.
Did you twist lock 2 nuts where you wanted them & spin in a drill while using a file ? thats
how i'm picturing it.
 
My pickups are direct mounted with wood screws on my Soloist, but it would really be cool with threaded inserts and machine screws.
 
So how did I actually do it in the end?

Well, this shouldn't work and one day it will, at least in theory, stop working. But I started to get sick of looking for ways to do this without permanently screwing up the pickup.

What I did was I got some scrap wood, and drilled a few test holes of varying sizes, each one very slightly bevelled at the top with a countersink. One of them, I forget the diameter, turned out to be fine: I could screw a standard humbucker mounting machine screw into the hole, and then dangle a large weight from it without it pulling out of the wood. Of course the problem here is that the threads on machine screws are tiny and so, if I continue to screw the screws in and out of the hole, in theory the hole will eventually strip.


That should work for a while but,as you say,will probably loosen eventually. You might try, removing the screws after you have 'threaded' the wood, then put a drop of thinned 5-minute epoxy in the hole, (just a drop, you don't want to fill the hole, just coat the threaded area). Before the epoxy sets up,run a screw coated with release agent back into the hole. Wait a minute or two and remove the screw BEFORE the epoxy completley sets up. With luck you will have made your own insert out of wood & glue. You may want to practice on scrap wood to make sure it all works correctly before you f-up your guitar. But done right it will hold as well as a metal nut.
:rock-on:
 
You did exactly what I would have suggested. I have done it numerous times. You can also put superglue in the hole and tap it. It effectively makes a machine screw hole. It works great.
 
Although this topic is 3+ yrs old now, it seemed appropriate to post here rather than start a new thread.  For the most part, the posts are as relevant now as they were three years ago, and since the OP was so thorough - establishing context, etc.. would just be redundant effort in order to create a "current" thread. 

Warning - probably TL;DR for many... 

I'm tempted to refer to this as "ring-less mount" to avoid flamage from direct-mount purists.  It's not "true direct-mount".  Basically, I want to retain the benefits of adjustable height while showing off as much of the guitar's finish as possible.

There _is_ a semi-new product called "PMS!" which stands for "Pickup Mounting Sytem".  It consists of a semi-flat, solid-brass piece that HAS the threads for your hummy machine screws.  It mounts flush to pickup route (obv. under pickup) - simple and brilliant.. It solves the problem of "machine versus wood screw", etc..  with it's design.

Can't figure out how to inline an image in order to wrap it with IMG tags as the OP has done (i.e. how's the file get to the Assets directory) so I've attached in case anyone even sees this and is interested ;-)  It _is_ a pretty cool gadget.

Since it purports a sonic benefit, via tightly-coupling with the guitar body, it is made of solid brass and thus - it's a tad expensive, imho.  I saw it at GFS, and then on FU-Tone...  Once again, the intended use seems to be for that perceived "direct-mount" benefit, but _regardless_ of that, it seems that the design would solve the OP's original use-case, which is the same as mine.  It's like a "hidden mounting ring" in a way..

The debate on how much "direct mount" affects tone is ongoing - and I don't want to participate if I'm honest...  I want what I would call "ringless-mount" purely for the aesthetics.  All I expect from my pickups is their traditional magnetic operation; oh, and height adjustment ;-)

If I had a shop I'd build some sort of small plate with threads similar to the PMS thing above.  Since I don't have that shop, and can't see paying for the brass when I'd just as soon have aluminum or plain steel, I'm likely to use OP's method. 

BTW, I appreciate the info in this aging thread, so - belated "thanks".

Cheers
 

Attachments

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The PMS system has been mentioned a few times on the forum and one or two members have used them.  Latest use in this thread

http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=26525.msg380509#msg380509


Per threaded inserts what you need is a 4-40 insert, but where to get them ?

One source is for model airplanes. They are often used in that world for helping to mount engines and the like. Greatplanes.com may be a source or one of their stockists.


To embed an image it needs to be hosted somewhere such as Photobucket. When you upload it directly to the forum it shows as an attachment. Edit: Photobucket is no longer a useful photo hosting service.
 
Greatplanes.com seem to sell them. Here's a link to the page, but you have to scroll down a bit: http://www.greatplanes.com/accys/gpmq3300.html
gpmq3360.gif

I have actually been looking at a similar type of hobby shop here in Sweden, and they specify the same numbers on the inserts as these, 4-40, 6-32, 8-32 and so on. But I haven't got a reply from them what these numbers represent. Maybe you could shed some light Stratamania, since you recommend specifically 4-40. Is it some measurement in inches or metric? Is it width and length? Is 4-40 the smallest ones? What screws goes with them?
(Another shop here in Sweden sell similar and those offered are in metric, M3 being the smallest)
I'm thinking on using such inserts for the pickguard to be able to replace it easily with different pickups and such.



 
Hi - thanks for this!  And for replying to my errant first post :)

I found this info:

4-40:    0.1120 or 14/125 in diameter; 40 threads per inch
5-40:    0.1250 or 1/8 in diameter; 40 threads per inch
6-32:    0.1380 or 69/500 in diameter; 32 threads per inch
8-32:    0.1640 or 41/250 in diameter; 32 threads per inch

At this site: http://www.instockfasteners.com/Tools/guidetofastenersizes.asp

The 4-40, I am guessing, at .112, or 14/125, would be appropriate for the typical hummy adjustment screw?
 
stratamania said:
The PMS system has been mentioned a few times on the forum and one or two members have used them.  Latest use in this thread
I was just realizing that - when I found this thread it was via google; I made the lame assumption that google brought me the most current thread on the subject, lol..  I really should have registered and done a proper search from within the forum before posting.  I appreciate the friendly response - a lot of members would be far less gentle for my apparently un-researched first post.

I placed my neck order last weekend, and I'm just getting ready to configure the body.  Despite the fact that my google search was not specific to Warmoth, the most relevant result was this one - serendipity I figured, heh.  so I registered and leapt right in :)

Per threaded inserts what you need is a 4-40 insert, but where to get them ?

One source is for model airplanes. They are often used in that world for helping to mount engines and the like. Greatplanes.com may be a source or one of their stockists. 

I'm a little surprised that there's no standard solution for this by now - there are plenty of production guitars out there without guards or rings these days, and google points at many of us who are looking for a good answer as DIYers

To embed an image it needs to be hosted somewhere such as Photobucket. When you upload it directly to the forum it shows as an attachment.
Heh.. I saw that the OP's first post had images coming from Warmoth.com and ...  made a large leap in assuming that he'd uploaded them, i.e. that the forum had a local, undocumented, image-hosting mechanism.  I'm not sure how I came to that conclusion (it was just coincidence that those screws were on Warmoth, and not Stew-Mac, for example...)

This should have been a no-brainer for me - it's already hosted- doh.

         
PMS_Promo_from_fu-tone.jpg


THANKS AGAIN for the reply, it's very much appreciated.

 
aprilia1k said:
I found this info:

4-40:    0.1120 or 14/125 in diameter; 40 threads per inch
5-40:    0.1250 or 1/8 in diameter; 40 threads per inch
6-32:    0.1380 or 69/500 in diameter; 32 threads per inch
8-32:    0.1640 or 41/250 in diameter; 32 threads per inch

Thanks for this. Now it makes perfect sense.

 
Actually folks to answer the question on 4-40 I had bought some for possible use on a future bass build. I did not give it a lot of thought when I posted prior to morning coffee.

But here is a useful link to another post in this forum showing them in use.

http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=11650.0



Perhaps for guitar humbuckers a 3 size could be used but that insert size might be difficult to find. Or a number 2 would allow the machine screw to pass through the pickup mount without disturbing the original threads. But as I have not tried this its theoretical and a possibility only.

Dubro, is another model parts company if its of use.

aprilia1k, also welcome to the forum, you will find we are mostly a well behaved bunch on here.

 
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