Controls for multi-voiced (Fluence) pickups?

cromulent

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265
Hi wiring gurus,

Hoping someone can provide some guidance to this wiring n00b. I have zero experience with active pickups and very little experience with custom wiring in general, so any guidance is most appreciated!

I want to build a Tele with a pair of active P90s, each of which have 3 distinct voicings: https://www.fishman.com/portfolio/fluence-signature-series-greg-koch-gristle-tone-p90-pickup-set/

That's a total of 9 combinations of Neck/Bridge voicings (1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 2/1, 2/2, 2/3, 3/1, 3/2, 3/3), provided that you can control the voicing of each pickup independently. In most of the builds I've looked at, there appears to be only a single voice switch that controls both pickups simultaneously, which drastically reduces the number of combinations you can actually use (typically only 1/1, 2/2, 3/3).

How would I wire this up? I'm thinking typical Les Paul style controls (3-way pickup toggle with 4 push/pull pots) where the voice of each pup could be selected via push/pull combos (e.g., Voice 1 = volume down, tone down; Voice 2 = volume up, tone down; Voice 3 = volume up, tone up). Or would it make more sense to just use 3-way mini toggles for each pup (seems more intuitive, but maybe less elegant)? Is there a better approach? Are there considerations I'm missing?

Not as critical, but I'm also wondering how best to deal with the battery pack location and charging in general. Fishman has a cool output jack USB charger in the standard Tele version of these pups (https://www.fishman.com/portfolio/f...s-greg-koch-gristle-tone-6-string-pickup-set/) but I understand they don't sell it separately.

Many thanks in advance for your help!
 
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PFDarkside

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On the the Fluence pickups, Voice 3 selection overrides Voice 1/2. So you don’t have to worry about pushing the volume down and tone up to go from 2 to 3.

On my Jimmy Page wired Les Paul I never use the “combo” positions (split + full) so I might wire it like you suggested (2 pots, both pickups go to voice 2 or 3 at once) however independent controls would let you “preset” each pickup to a voice and use the 3 way to switch. That’s like the old school way of setting Les Paul volumes up to get clean and breakup and switch between them.

Here is the full packet for the P90 Fluence. Basically wire it like the last diagram but use four push pull pots. The only thing that changes is that the Orange/Green and Blue/Yellow would each go to their respective push/pull instead of being combined. Then you’ll get LP style controls and the individual voice control pots.

Orange - Bridge Volume
Yellow - Bridge Tone
Green - Neck Volume
Yellow - Neck Tone

 

cromulent

Senior member
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265
If I understand it, that seems like a good solution. I suppose I could wire to whichever pots I want, but is the general idea something like this...?

Neck volume down, Neck tone down = Neck pup voice 1
Neck volume up, Neck tone down = Neck pup voice 2
[Neck volume up or down], Neck tone up = Neck pup voice 3

and vice versa for Bridge?

And just to make it even more complicated... Would I be able to include a in/out-of-phase switch somehow?
 
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PFDarkside

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109
Yes, that’s correct!

I don’t know if Fluence can do phase switching, EMG can’t for example. However you could use the EMG PI2 to reverse phase. That can be a switch or a push/pull.
 

cromulent

Senior member
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265
Yes, that’s correct!

I don’t know if Fluence can do phase switching, EMG can’t for example. However you could use the EMG PI2 to reverse phase. That can be a switch or a push/pull.
I'm pretty sure they do. Greg Koch has phase switching in one of his models, and I'm pretty sure he uses Fluence on everything.

Assuming they do though, what would I do to wire it in? (Again, I'm a complete n00b in the electronics area.). As simple as a toggle to one of the pups to reverse its phase?
 

Spud

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1,268
You will get a excellent transfer of electrical energy! (It could introduce noise) but it will be worth it!!
 

PFDarkside

Senior member
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109
I'm pretty sure they do. Greg Koch has phase switching in one of his models, and I'm pretty sure he uses Fluence on everything.

Assuming they do though, what would I do to wire it in? (Again, I'm a complete n00b in the electronics area.). As simple as a toggle to one of the pups to reverse its phase?
Do you know which model has the phase swap available?

I think an email to Fishman support might help. They are pretty poor compared to the other makers like EMG and Duncan, but they will hopefully have an answer.
 

cromulent

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265
Oh Fluence not great? I'm not married to that brand - I should probably do some additional research? I'm open to any other suggestions.
 

PFDarkside

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109
Oh Fluence not great? I'm not married to that brand - I should probably do some additional research? I'm open to any other suggestions.
Here is a document that mentions a phase reversal pot. It seems similar to the EMG with a little more control.

I have no issues with the products at all, it was just working with technical support to answer some questions. I had some interactions with support where they just continually referred me to the online documentation and wouldn’t answer my technical questions other than saying “if you are having troubles, a tech can install them for you”.


 
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cromulent

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265
Hmm that's annoying. A big part of the reason I'm considering doing this build is to get more versed in the technical aspects of electronic design. Defeats the purpose if I just pay someone else to do it for me.
 

cromulent

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265
Here’s the Gristle Monster talking about these pups. Skip to 13:30 ish for out-of-phase feature.


Apparently available on the Reverend model and also as an upgrade on the actual pups.
 

stratamania

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9,453
A big part of the reason I'm considering doing this build is to get more versed in the technical aspects of electronic design.

It seems all of the above is possible, and this forum can help you with the design.

(I am not sold on the 12guage Romex in the guitar though, for this purpose :)

@cromulent is this still to go in a Tele Deluxe?

If so, another place you could put the universal battery pack is under the pickguard somewhere accessed via a 1/2" hole, for this you may need to rout some space in the body or perhaps if there is enough depth under the volume and tone controls place the universal battery pack in the bottom of the cavity and drill a 1/2" hole so that the USB for the charger is accessible from the back of the guitar.

I provided a number of other suggestions for the battery pack in the last thread where it was discussed, so there are a number of things to consider as options. The tele input which you cannot buy separately would not work without the tele control part also as the two work together for the overall battery and charging input.

The diagram on page 9 of https://www.fishman.com/wp-content/...tall_Guide_Fluence_Greg_Koch_P90_FLUENCE_.pdf which was linked earlier would work with a little adaptation for phase reversal and individual voice selection for each pickup. See edit below for a closer diagram.
  • For individual voice selection for each pickup, you need four switches.
  • For phase reversal you need one phase reversal kit linked earlier in the thread which would take up one of the pot positions available for individual voice switching if using push-pull pots.
A suggestion would be as follows:
  1. Put the phase reversal kit as one of the volume pots.
  2. For voice selection for say the bridge pickup, do that on two of the remaining pots available.
  3. For the other pickup, use two mini toggles. They could even be SPST or half of a DPDT.
EDIT: Basically this diagram linked below, but with the voice switching for one of the pickups moved to a pair of mini toggles. Or possibly a single three position toggle as an alternate option.


You would also for that Fishman wiring in addition to a pair of mini toggles need a pair of reactive tones but it could be done without those.


@cromulent what do you think?
 
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cromulent

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It doesn't necessarily need to be a Tele, but Tele seemed like a logical choice for what I'm looking to do. (EDIT: I guess a regular old rear-routed Tele would do the trick? I don't exactly know the difference between a standard Tele and Tele Deluxe.)

For the battery pack, could I just use the Fishman Les Paul pack (https://www.fishman.com/portfolio/rechargeable-battery-pack-for-les-paul/)? I guess what I'm asking is, would that plate fit on a rear-routed Warmoth Tele? And leave enough room for the p/p pots?

Re controls: I was thinking along the same lines as what you describe. But would it make more sense to have neck pup voicing controlled by neck volume/tone p/p pots; bridge pup voicing controlled by bridge neck/tone p/p pots; and phase controlled by a mini toggle?

If you couldn't tell, I'm all about maximizing tonal options. On that note, is there anything else I should consider incorporating into this build?
 
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stratamania

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I don't exactly know the difference between a standard Tele and Tele Deluxe.

A Tele Deluxe was/is a dual humbucker offering from Fender with LP type controls mounted on a large pickguard and a large CBS Strat style headstock. I remember when they first appeared in music shops...

A rear rout Tele that Warmoth offers can be obtained with LP style controls and may for some be more streamlined aesthetically.

For the battery pack, could I just use the Fishman Les Paul pack (https://www.fishman.com/portfolio/rechargeable-battery-pack-for-les-paul/)? I guess what I'm asking is, would that plate fit on a rear-routed Warmoth Tele? And leave enough room for the p/p pots?

The Warmoth backplate is not the same size dimensionally and it may not be easy to cut down a Fishman LP battery pack without ruining it. You should be able, however, in a rear rout Tele to drill a 1/2" hole and mount the Universal battery pack without issue. If I recall correctly, another forum member has done this before.

But would it make more sense to have neck pup voicing controlled by neck volume/tone p/p pots; bridge pup voicing controlled by bridge neck/tone p/p pots; and phase controlled by a mini toggle?

I see where you are going with this, but that is not possible, as to get the phase switching you need the specially produced Fishman pot with the phase inverting kit. You cannot just do phase switching like normal pickups, you need this kit, so what is possible is what I suggested in the post above.

It is easy enough to adapt the wiring to do the voice switching with toggles. If you wanted to switch the pickups using toggles only that is possible or two push-pull pots for one pickup and a toggle or two for the other.
 

stratamania

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9,453
If you couldn't tell, I'm all about maximizing tonal options. On that note, is there anything else I should consider incorporating into this build?

Not with the Fishman pickups. If you wanted to do different pickups, you could do Jimmy Page style wiring or a variation of it.
 

cromulent

Senior member
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265
Ah, I see. So I'd need this phase inverter p/p pot: https://www.fishman.com/portfolio/phase-inverter/

So would it be possible to wire up like I said, but instead of a mini-toggle, I could have this extra p/p pot that I use solely to phase-switch? (the pot would essentially be useless). Or is there more to it than that?

Also am I mental or does Warmoth not sell a cover for the rear rout? I can't find dimension info anywhere.
 
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stratamania

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9,453
So would it be possible to wire up like I said, but instead of a mini-toggle, I could have this extra p/p pot that I use solely to phase-switch? (the pot would essentially be useless). Or is there more to it than that?

There is more to it than that it is a circuit board and is an integral part. Not like a normal push-pull pot at all in that sense. See my earlier post, it already has provided the possibilities that are available with these pickups.
Also am I mental or does Warmoth not sell a cover for the rear rout? I can't find dimension info anywhere.

It is provided when you order a rear rout body. The dimensions are not published anywhere to my knowledge.
 
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