Coil Splitting Question

[NeilStryker]

Hey guys...  my current build is at the luthier/repair shop getting final assembly -  it is a H-S-H strat shape body.  Both Humbuckers are to be split with push-pull pots.  It is all wired up now, but there were a few problems, only one of which I will go into. 

Unbeknownst to me, my repair guy flipped the orientation of the coils on the neck humbucker from the way I had it set up in the pickup ring when I dropped it off.  For visual reasons, the neck humbucker is backwards of how it would "normally"be, i guess...  He put the black coil towards the neck, which is wrong.. I asked him to flip it back, which i now am realizing will make the coil which is on with the coil split activated would be the inside coil which would not be the right way?  right?

So my question is.... which coil should activate when the coil split is activated??    I am thinking the farthest coil towards the neck right?  So he will need to re-wire the pickup, because just flipping the pickup in the ring will not solve the problem?  right?   

here;s a pic.... this is how the colors of the coils should be oriented (the repair guy flipped the neck one around)...

 

[stubhead]

The way you hook up the wires to the switch will determine which coil is activated. In the neck pickup, I would want the coil closest to the headstock to be the one activated when split. On the bridge PU, it's a tossup - the coil closest to the bridge is bitier, the other one is a tiny bit louder and a tiny bit mellower. Polarity matters too - he has a multi-meter, I hope?

 

[NeilStryker]

Yep, he has all that stuff and he knows what he is doing (although at this point my confidence in him is pretty shot, and he's not getting a recomendation from me without a whole dramatic story of what I have gone through -he has had my guitar for 4 months!!!  he also installed the neck pickup ring crooked, which i nearly lost my shite on...  he swears there will be no viewable cosmetic evidence that it was done crooked in the first place.  but he did bind the fhole and it looks great.)

I just talked to him on the phone... and he confused the hell out of me, and I think he just wants it out the door and to get paid....  but the jist is that he can't just flip the wires to select the other coil since it would put something out of phase with the other pickup due to how he wired it in relation to the ground....   

At this point I don't care what is "easiest" for him... I want to pay for what I asked him to do.  I think that if he had wired it up the right way first there would be no out of phase/polarity issues?   

So thats my next question....  Regardless of wether I had the pickup flipped from what is the "normal" orientation....    should he be able to wire it up exactly as I  requested without issue" ??
I think he just doesnt want to spend the time to rewire more than he has to.  But this guitar is the most expensive guitar I probably will ever have and I want it to work perfect as I requested of him, and thats what I should get if he wants to be paid for it, right?

ps...  I am getting Dan Erlewines book and from now on I'm doing this stuff myself.

 

[GoDrex]

I swear there ought to be some sort of certification - like how mechanics have the ASE. I don't know if it would help, but at least then you might have a better chance of finding someone that might know what they're doing. I can't find anyone good to do work on my guitar anywhere near where I live. It's frustrating.

 

[jackthehack]

I don't think there's a "standard", and don't think it matters much anyway.

He is correct that you can't "flip the wires", they are hard-wired one way only, as I said I don't know WHICH coil is split out, that could vary with manufacturer; can't see how a difference in one coil length is going to make any noticible difference in sound output anyway.

If the visual bothers you, flip the HB back over, don't need to change the wires

 

[NeilStryker]

Yeah, I get ya that the sound difference would be negligible, I just am really frustrated with waiting 4 months, going to pick it up after he calls and says it's finished and finding 3 really noticeable issues.... the third being that he didn't install the tuning peg screws.  i cant get anyone to do quality work on anything anymore... even the auto mechanics around here cant do anything right either.  It's so strange because he does great work on other more difficult things... like binding the f-hole... it looks amazing, and that isn't easy to do, and he did a great job on the fret ends and all that. 

I thought you could pick either/or when it comes to coil splitting...  I've seen those megaswitch diagrams and it seems that there are ways of using both coils separately depending on how it is wired?  I know thats not what i'm doing but it would seem to reason that it is possible? 
btw it is a SD Jazz in the neck if that makes a difference.

 

[jackthehack]

What kind of a switch is installed? Are the humbuckers both 4 conductor models? Assuming you are referring to the switch diagram below? Actually the black coil on the neck pickup SHOULD be closest to neck, now you have your Seymour Duncan logo upside down and the adjustable pole pieces backwards?

 

[NeilStryker]

It's a standard switchcraft 5 way switch cuz they 5 way is wired up normally for a H-S-H.  Both humbuckers are 4 conductor (SD Pearly Gates, SD Jazz in neck).   I know that the neck pickup is supposed to go the other way, but everyone seems to think it doesnt make much difference one way or the other.   I just thought that since the megaswitch diagram shows that you can have either/or, that this meant that the wires on the pickups provided for this option even if you arent using a megaswitch, or maybe i assumed wrong.

I just wanted the coil closest to the neck to be the coil which was on when it was split, but that might not be an easy option at this point.  {edit}  I figured the coil closest to the neck would give the stratiest neck tone, but if you all dont think it would sound much different than I think I could live with it.  Its more important the color scheme of the pickups at this point for the overall design,  it looks retarded with the pickup flipped from my design.

 

[jackthehack]

The megaswitch has different wiring that that of the normal 5-way switch you installed, so that chart/diagram is moot unless you replace the existing switch with a megaswitch. I'm pretty sure that most HBs that split, split the coil WITH the adjustable pieces to active when tapped.

Methinks you may have worn the tech's nerves out not understanding how the wiring works. It sounds like he initially set it up the way you asked, i.e.,  he flipped the neck pickup around because you'd installed it backwards and wanted the split coil closest to the neck. The picture you posted shows the neck pickup installed as "BA" instead of "AB" per the diagram. He would have installed the wiring on the 5-way same as on a 3 single coil Strat and coil tapped either humbucker with the push/pull switches on the pots.

If he does good work, I'd go apologize to him and and cop to not having much of a clue about guitar wiring  and start giving what he says more credence than your assumptions or what the other guys assumed/said....

 

[blue313]

Usually the screw coils are closest to the ends with the slug coils towards the center, but there's no hard and fast rule.  However, the bobbins look to be in the aesthetically pleasing alternating pattern.  

The Superswitch can give you just about anything you want though, if theres room for one.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Components:_Switches_and_knobs/1/Super_Switch/Instructions/I-3200.html#details

 

[NeilStryker]

I set the pickup up the direction I wanted it, he changed it without asking me.    If the normal wiring for something like that is for the adjustable pole coil to be tapped than I'm cool with that, I just thought that it was an easy alternative to have the other coil on.  Like you said, the sound/tone difference should be very little, if even noticeable. (and who's to say better or worse)

But in terms of apologizing on my part, there will be none of that...  he put the pickup ring on off-center, very noticeably off angle, that's unacceptable especially when the flat square end of the fretboard is a few millimeters away as a reference. That means that 3 of the 4 screw holes were in the wrong place.  I could have put it on straight myself, but I figured since I had never done it that I wanted someone with alot of experience to do it right so I wouldnt make any rookie mistakes.  And he didnt install the tuning pegs as requested either (that's just lazy, its easily remedied, but after 4 months wait and a 40 minute drive to his shop, just a tad annoying).   

So i'm gonna just go with the way it is wired up, just turning the pickup around so the coils look right.

The guy does do great work, like I said when it comes to the binding on the f-hole and all the other stuff, it's too bad that a few little things spoiled my impression of him (although for a super-custom, very-expensive guitar, a noticeably crooked pickup is a big deal).  He says he can fix it with no visual evidence that it was put on wrong, I pray this is so.

 

[theklanch]

Wow Neil yeah I don't think I would be recommending this guy for any work.  Go pick up your guitar and start picking brains on the forum here, I know what you want, you would have to explain it to me again, but anything is possible with a 4 lead pickup.  What I do is mentally picture the signal path as just that: a path.  I go over it and over it in my mind till I can sit down and wire the guitar and normally it works out.  When I first started messing with them I had some problems and I would think of every pickup with it's own path to the speaker.  I could go on and on typing for an hour about this I guess it is hard to explain how someone thinks about something

Why don't you do this:  Go get your guitar and where do you live?  I'll be right over and I'll show you how to wire it.........Twist up a fatty and put on some garcia band if you don't mind and I'll be right over!!!!!

 

[stubhead]

Each coil on a pickup has a start and a finish, any humbucking pickup is two coils together... the most important aspect of polarity here has to do with that single-coil middle pickup,and what & how you want it to combine - there are so many ways to wire up what you have, which I would visualize as a five-coil guitar. Here's a diagram:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=color_codes

The question I would have to have clear in my head before even thinking is whether you WANT the middle (single) coil to be in-or-out of phase with the split singles (from the humbuckers)  - or whether you DON'T want that.

 

[NeilStryker]

On a standard strat 3 pickup guitar, would the middle be in phase or out of phase with the split coils of the humbuckers?    Does this relate to the hum cancelling effect?  I wanted the regular normal way that a H-S-H guitar would be wired.  According to that diagram, can the north/south coil just be reversed and reverse the way the pickups are wired, or does this throw it out of phase/or in phase or whatever?  I don't claim to know electronics on a technical level, I just know what I want as a guitar player. 

 

[jhumber]

I've been looking into this exact question lately as I'm planning an HSH build, and from what I've been told the single coil does not want to be RWRP. If you want that strat-quack in positions 2 and 4, combine the split humbucker with a regular middle single coil.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

For the humbucking effect, you would want the middle pickup to be out-of-phase.  That's assuming it is reverse wound, reverse polarity (RWRP) from the split coil it wil be sharing the signal path with.  Whether it is in series or parallel only changes the output and sound, the hum-cancelling is already done.

He probably turned the neck humbucker around for visual symetry of the three pickups going white/black, white, black/white.  However, that's a preference thing because by doing that the pole pieces were now further from the neck and the SD logo was upside down.  But you're right, he shouldn't have assumed anything and not asked.

 

[NeilStryker]

Okay, the middle pickup is wired out of phase- when I played it, positions 2 and 4 had no hum.   That's what I wanted.  My question is -  is it possible to wire the neck pickup so that the south coil is selected (just as the north would be if it were oriented normally) when in position 2 or 4, or when the coil is split with the push/pull??   

[EDIT]  Cuz I am looking at the schematics on the Seymour Duncan Site... the schematic for "HSH, I Vol, 1 Tone, 5 way switch, Push/Pull", along with the diagram that stubhead posted, and I don't see why you can't use the South start wire (green) in place of the north start wire (black), and have the north start wire go to ground?  I must be missing something.

 

[NeilStryker]

Okay, so we sorted this whole speedbump out and the tech ended up doing an amazing job, once all is said and done..  although it got a bit stressful at times.  I did learn alot about pickups and wirings doing this projects thanks to some of you here, so thanks.  This is my first guitar project so I'm glad I got some increased knowledge... 
I'll get pics up soon of the finished guitar...  sounds and plays amazing.    With the 5 way switch and the two push/pull pots I get 9 different pickup choices:

1. Full Bridge Humbucker (SD Pearly Gates Trembucker)
2. Full Bridge Hum + Middle Single coil (Dimarzio Area 58)
3. Middle Single Coil
4. Full Neck Hum + Middle Single
5. Full Neck Hum (SD Jazz)

6. Split Hum Bridge
7. Split Hum Bridge + Middle Single
8. Split Hum Neck
9. Split Hum Neck +Single Coil

Not even mentioning the tones it gets with overdrive / fuzz... the clean tones choices are unbelievable, i;ve never had a guitar with so many usable clean tones ever. 

 

[stubhead]

Your positions #7 and #9 could turn out to be lovely, I wired up my... umm, "SuperTele" with a five-way for just the bridge HB plus concentric tone/volumes and a three-way and being able to combine the splits with the singles gives you something really neat - clear, wide, yet LOUD.... arty07:

 

[tfarny]

Glad you got it sorted. Is there anything this guy did that you couldn't have done yourself with $100 worth of tools and some elbow grease, though? In four months, you could master the art of guitar wiring and have 3.5 months left over.
I had almost given up on any kind of professional guitar repair until I found Rudy's music repair shop - i.e. Rudy Pensa. For $35 they bevelled the fret ends on my LP, two days turnaround, and it's amazing how perfect their work was. I just took my tele neck off and sent it to them for the same treatment.