Clear - Brown burst finish.

[Dolando]

Hello,

I will soon be in the posetion of my warmoth custom deluxe jazz 5 with zebrawood top and swamp ash body.

I would like to have a go at doing a brown to clear burst myself. A picture of Danudas tele below is what I'm after, does anyone know what kind of brown this would be?

And is there a tinted clear coat put on first for the middle?

Thanks,

Adam

 

[Cagey]

I shouldn't say, but...

I think that guitar was finished by virgin wood nymphs in an enchanted forest, and polished with albino minks.

You can't get there from here. Go back! Save yourself!

 

[Dolando]

Haha...well I'm a hobbit sized man, so lets go on an adventure.

 

[anorakDan]

I shouldn't say, but...

I think that guitar was finished by virgin wood nymphs in an enchanted forest, and polished with albino minks...

You've done it now, Cagey. Giving away secrets like that! :laughing7:

 

[bagman67]

I think what we can read between the lines of Cagey's response is something like this:


I dunno what they mixed up to get that brown, but replicating it is likely to be difficult/expensive/frustrating/damn-near-impossible, so why not pay the pros to do what they do better than any of us can do?


Forgive me, Cagey, if I put words in your mouth that you never implied.  But if you implied it, I think I kinda agree.


Bagman

 

[Cagey]

Haha...well I'm a hobbit sized man, so lets go on an adventure.

Ok.

First, why does everybody refer to bursts backwards? Have they never seen an explosion? Bursts start in the center where they're bright, and morph into a darker color as they reach the edges. So, to me, that's a clear to brown burst. But, maybe that's just me.

Raw Zebra has a sort of light cream color to begin with, interspersed with dark lines of grain. It will darken slightly just putting clear on it. So, you shoot the clear, then shoot the edges. What color? Mix it. Go someplace that sells raw wood, and buy a plank of something creamy and cheap, like pine. Shoot some clear on it, then mix up some brown, but light. Shoot a short length of the edges of your test piece, and see if you're happy. If not, add some tint and do it again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

When the brown is just right, shoot the guitar. You'll have your technique down by then, but be careful. Shoot from the center out.

After you're pissed off, lacquer thinner will remove anything you've done, and you can start over.

 

[Dolando]

Sorry, I suppose it is a little backwards. I'm pretty sure warmoth call it that?

I have absolutely no experience with mixing paint/have no spray gun etc. I was planning on using spray cans, so after which ever colour is closest to it? I'm under no illusions that its going to be exact.

I have read up on and watched videos on sunburst finishes, so have a bit of an idea and a few techniques to do. Thanks for the advice though, appreciate it loads.

I dunno what they mixed up to get that brown, but replicating it is likely to be difficult/expensive/frustrating/damn-near-impossible, so why not pay the pros to do what they do better than any of us can do?

I could pay them to do it, But you don't learn if you pay someone else to do it, we'll its the mentallity I've always had, its why I started building guitars. To be honest, for the price you pay, the finishes warmoth do are pretty thin. But the results they have are top notch! So i was torn, but decided to do it myself. I've done a few guitars with cans and they have all come out really well.

Thanks for the replies. Really appreciate it.

 

[Cagey]

I think what we can read between the lines of Cagey's response is something like this:

I dunno what they mixed up to get that brown, but replicating it is likely to be difficult/expensive/frustrating/damn-near-impossible, so why not pay the pros to do what they do better than any of us can do?

Forgive me, Cagey, if I put words in your mouth that you never implied.  But if you implied it, I think I kinda agree.

Yeah, you heard me <grin>

Finishing is tricky work that leads to disappointment more often than satisfaction until you've spent a lot of time and money.

I'm reminded of being young and thinking the brake/shock/muffler shops charged too much for something that only involved a few bolts. Never considered their tool investment and experience until I tried doing those things myself. I got cured quick.

 

[Cagey]

Sorry, I suppose it is a little backwards. I'm pretty sure warmoth call it that?

They also call curly Maple "flamed" maple, even before it has a finish on it and has clearly avoided/survived any flames.

I could pay them to do it, But you don't learn if you pay someone else to do it, we'll its the mentallity I've always had, its why I started building guitars. To be honest, for the price you pay, the finishes warmoth do are pretty thin. But the results they have are top notch! So i was torn, but decided to do it myself. I've done a few guitars with cans and they have all come out really well.

That's true. As an old guitar teacher used to tell me about performance anxiety: "You have to dare to suck". You can't know if you'll do well until you try, and you have to be prepared to fail. The only people who don't make mistakes are those who don't do anything at all. They also don't learn anything. Oddly enough, they're often the most critical of what others do.

 

[Dolando]

Sorry, I suppose it is a little backwards. I'm pretty sure warmoth call it that?

They also call curly Maple "flamed" maple, even before it has a finish on it and has clearly avoided/survived any flames.

I could pay them to do it, But you don't learn if you pay someone else to do it, we'll its the mentallity I've always had, its why I started building guitars. To be honest, for the price you pay, the finishes warmoth do are pretty thin. But the results they have are top notch! So i was torn, but decided to do it myself. I've done a few guitars with cans and they have all come out really well.

That's true. As an old guitar teacher used to tell me about performance anxiety: "You have to dare to suck". You can't know if you'll do well until you try, and you have to be prepared to fail. The only people who don't make mistakes are those who don't do anything at all. They also don't learn anything. Oddly enough, they're often the most critical of what others do.

"You have to dare to suck" I like that! Totally true. I've always been one for taking things head on.

Ive added another pic, its the November 'Guitar of the month'. I think I'm aiming for something between the two. And he did that with a cheap spray gun and some know how.

 

[Dolando]

Oh and do you notice anything different about the tittle....?

 

[Cagey]

"You have to dare to suck" I like that! Totally true. I've always been one for taking things head on.

Hehe! Yeah, it's a variation on the old "nothing ventured, nothing gained" truism.

What's weird is if you actually play in front of an audience, they don't know. You can get away with murder, and a LOT of bands do. Most people pay attention to lyrics, while most musicians pay attention to other musicians. Thing is, in any given audience there aren't that many musicians. What few there are won't cut you any slack no matter what you're doing, but who cares? The chicks are listening to the lyrics, and the guys are listening to the chicks. There's a lesson in there...

 

[Tonar8352]

Music has words?????????????  :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:

 

[Cagey]

Music has words?????????????  :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:

Some kinds do. Not sure why. I suppose it makes as good a fill as anything.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Music has words?????????????  :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:

Some kinds do. Not sure why. I suppose it makes as good a fill as anything.

I like it when it does.  It's helps when naming it.

EJ's "Cliffs of Dover" should be called, "Bah do bah do bah doob buh do bah do......."

 

[Tonar8352]

I can't even scream on key so I leave the words up to the vocalists. Maybe that is why I don't write songs, I never pay attention to the words.

PS Sorry this thread took such a hard left turn so let me get it back on track by giving you some color advice.  I would use the 5033 to make your brown. You may have to mix some black into it to darken it up or just mix the brown real strong. If you mix it too light it will make a real nice honey burst.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Colors,_tints,_and_stains/ColorTone_Liquid_Stains.html
The other option is to use this from LMI. It has more of a Van Dyke Brown appearance.
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Dyes&NameProdHeader=Dye+Concentrates

If you look through my threads you will find all kind of information on doing bursts. There are pictures and plenty of information that I have shared freely over the years finish guitars on the forum which I hope you will find helpful.

 

[Dolando]

Thanks for that. I'm based in the UK, can you ship/paints etc?

I don't know if you saw, but I mentioned before, but I have no experience with mixing paint and I have no spray guns etc. Ive done a couple with cans and got good results. I wouldn't really know where to start on that, would like to learn though. Might do some reading. If not would ideally like a spray can.

I've read this tutorial by a local guitar tech and seems like the kind of thing but without the amber middle.

http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/2011/04/11/creating-a-sunburst-finish-with-aerosols/

Do you think the brown you suggested is similar to that? Not sure how much the amber has affected the brown...

Thanks,

Adam

 

[Tonar8352]

Adam,
The browns dyes that I suggested would give very much the same look depending on the strength they were mixed in the clear lacquer.

The depth of the brown will depend on how many coats you spray on it. The more you spray the darker it gets. I always spray bursts with the the corner of the edge as my guide and actually focus the spray pattern at the corner as a target. I have not used cans but with some practice I'm sure one could become effective at it, the guy on the link you attached obviously did.  I would say the real trick is going to be to go slow and do several light coats making sure the bottom edge of your spray pattern is focused on the sharp edge of the corner of the guitar. So if I were spraying right to left and my pattern out of the can was shooting like this <  (which it should)  I would not even have the top half of that pattern hitting the guitar. Focus that lower half of the pattern on the edge until you get the depth of color you want.  You will find that the over spray will build a misted edge toward the center of the guitar and that is where the transition of the burst comes from.  Once the clears goes on  it melts all together.  If you want to widen the transition area up before the clear just hold the can really far from the surface and mist it using more of the < pattern but still focusing on the out side edge of the guitar.

I have no idea on shipping finishing materials to the UK. I do know that there are world class finishers and builders in the UK such as Clive Brown and Barrett "The Over the Pond Guy" (who for some reason no one will say his name out loud on the internet but I just did.  :icon_smile  There has to be materials there to purchase that will get the job done. I have a good builder friend who move from the UK to the US who just came back from holiday in the UK and while visiting one of the of those guys was able to examine Jimmy Pages blond 335 that was in the shop for repairs.

I hope that helps.

PS sorry about the name dropping guys/gals but how cool is it to be able to get information from guys of that caliber?

 

[Dolando]

Yea that helps loads, thanks for that. I've read that you should spray from the centre out. If I've understood you're post then you're staying to spray from the outside of the guitar which I originally thought when thinking about a burst.

That definitely give me some food for thought. My girlfriends dad is a paint technician at a garage, and I spoke to him today and he said I could go in and use one of there guns and their booth. I'm sure he can help with the mixing but can't seem to find how to mix it. I've got no idea how much is a little colour and how much is a lot?

Could you send me a link to the laquer I'd need to mix the colour with. I've looked on stewmac but have a few to choose from and I'm a little lost.

If we are going the name drop rout, I did a relic telecaster that I did for my brother and he knows a session guitarist who payed for Chris Rea, and he gave it a big thumbs up. Not bad for my 3rd guitar I've attached a pic for ya.

Thanks again.

 

[Tonar8352]

I've read that you should spray from the centre out.

You are spraying from the center out which means the gun is pointed toward the outside edge of the guitar. If you were to spray from the outside edge toward the center it would cover the center of the guitar with over spray. Look on you tube for people spraying sunburst finishes and you can watch them in action.

On mixing color I can only tell you to do a test board until you get what you like.  But remember this; your colors will change when you spray clear over it so don't assume you have hit the nail on the head until you see what the clear does to it. This is a great example of what I'm talking about.
Before clear.

After clear.

Here is a link to some great lacquer.
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Finishes&NameProdHeader=Seagrave+%28McFadden%29+Spray+Lacquer

You should really look for a source of lacquer in the UK, I do not think anyone is going to be shipping combustible material over seas. Lacquer is not flammable it is combustible, it will blow up under the wrong conditions. 

More people should know about Chris Rea, I love his music!  Who was the session guy?