church music

[exalted]

Although I would fervently disagree (pork, alcohol, blue laws, suicide bombers), you missed my point.

The billboards in question say "Don't believe in God? You aren't alone."  They aren't targeting the believers - they're targeting the ones who claim to be religious because a) they've never thought about it, and b) because they're scared. A lot of people are scared to admit to others they don't believe in a god. Some are scared to admit that to themselves.

Feeling suppressed and coerced into worshiping/pretending to worship a god is a direct burden on your intellectual and emotional freedom.

 

[nathan a]

Although I would fervently disagree (pork, alcohol, blue laws, suicide bombers), you missed my point.

You are talking about believing in a RELIGION restricting freedom (depending on circumstances, I agree with this). However, that is very different than saying belief in god restricts freedom. The statement "I believe in god" restricts no freedoms; it does not suggest any rules or what have you. Now, saying "I follow Christianity".... okay, here I can see your point. Regardless, this is an important distinction. God is not necessarily the same thing as religion, at all.

Without God we can have no purpose.

Whoa, that is a hard statement to make. How can you say that someone else's life has no purpose? It might mean nothing to you because it doesn't involve god, but that doesn't mean they feel that their own existence is meaningless. That is just you projecting your beliefs onto someone else, and is a huge value judgment.

No, I do not believe in science religiously - although it does have more inherent value than religion.

Also a huge value judgment. I dare you to prove this.

 

[hannaugh]

+1 nathana on all points.

 

[exalted]

You are talking about believing in a RELIGION restricting freedom (depending on circumstances, I agree with this). However, that is very different than saying belief in god restricts freedom. The statement "I believe in god" restricts no freedoms; it does not suggest any rules or what have you. Now, saying "I follow Christianity".... okay, here I can see your point. Regardless, this is an important distinction. God is not necessarily the same thing as religion, at all.

hannaugh said "I don't think there is anything about believing in a higher power..." Religion is a frequent aspect of believing in a higher power. Religion restricts freedom. Yes, you are correct; simply believing in a god does not restrict freedom. However, she said that in response to my statement about closet atheists being granted freedom for shedding their hollow religion, so I feel I wasn't being unjustifiably nitpicky. We were talking about religion in specific, not any sort of deism.

If someone made that same statement in a different context, and for whatever reason I felt compelled to challenge them, I would have certainly worded my argument differently. But in the context of this conversation, I feel my statement was not out of place.

Also a huge value judgment. I dare you to prove this.

In Ethiopia, approximately 2.5 million children are starving right now. Which is more likely to rectify that, GMOs and/or drought-resistant crops, or prayer for more rain? I should mention that without receiving aid, 4 million Ethiopians would starve every year, whether they had a good farming season or not.

In early 20th century America, the infant mortality rate was 136 in every 1000. Today, it hovers somewhere around seven per thousand. Was this caused by an increase in the power of religion over the past century, or a result in advances of medical science?

Of course, both my arguments above have one serious flaw - they both assume that life is valuable. If you would like to argue that the metaphysical benefits of religion outweigh the tangible benefits of science, then I would need to see some evidence (not even proof - just evidence!) that any such supernatural benefits exist at all.

As for the spiritual health aspect that many theists tout, it's important to keep in mind that religion and spirituality are not one in the same. Religion is only a conduit to spiritual health - not the definitive path.

 

[Mor Paul]

Exalted, religions like Christianity don't completely shun all science. The belief is that God helps, even through scientific advances.
This thread is going pretty well, even with the hijack, I think 

 

[exalted]

I know they don't shun science. But as science has shown that prayer can actually do more harm than good (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060403133554.htm), I think it's safe to assume science would do okay without God's help.

 

[rockskate4x]

I agree with you on this point, religion that argues against proven science must be false. It makes a good amount of sense for religious people not to turn a blind eye to proven science because it is a good way to practice religion, as in making medicinal advances to save more lives. Now as far as what "proven science" actually is there is debate on the issue, i.e. big bang, etc... but you can find many circles of religious people now that do believe in the big bang.

 

[hannaugh]

Religion has been the glue that held civilization together for thousands of years.  Communities were built around it in every culture on earth.  Ceremony, church, all that stuff is what held networks of families together, and ultimately what allowed them to survive for the fact that it kept them together.  It's world history and anthropology 101.  Nowadays we have consumerism and instant communication to keep us together, but before that stuff came along there was not a lot to inspire people to build communities and build relationships with other families outside of church. 

I have a feeling nothing I say will make you even slightly waver in you beliefs though (yes, they are beliefs... if you become convinced of something, that means you believe it), and since all you do is split hairs and pick apart wording to drive the conversation in circles, I'm gonna peace out here.

 

[exalted]

I wasn't splitting hairs - I was explaining what I said and why I said it. I don't mind, but your "+1" was to a post that had as much to do with semantics as anything I said.

As for the value of religion, setting aside your Euro-centric view of history, I acknowledge religion has benefits, both in our early development and currently. That isn't what we were talking about. We were talking about the value of religion versus science. Science (in the sense we're discussing it), has only been around for a few hundred years. The most you can go back is a thousand years, which leads you to its rudimentary origins.

Was religion more valuable than science when science did not exist? Well, yes, just like water was better for putting out fires than a fire extinguisher prior to their invention.

It's a shame to see the ad hominem in your post - that's not where I was going with this discussion.

And are you trying to change my beliefs? I didn't know this was about proselytism.

 

[JohninSC]

Exalted, religions like Christianity don't completely shun all science. The belief is that God helps, even through scientific advances.
This thread is going pretty well, even with the hijack, I think 

Well said. For a brainstorm on this topic, read Angels and Demons by Dan Brown (its the much less offensive prequel to the Da Vinci Code, and the movie is coming out in like 2 months) there are 2 views on the religion/athiestic science debate.

the Camerlingo says that the 2 are like oil and water, and will never mix. He believes that science is inherently bad for humankind (obviously a dumb opinion)

then there is the priest/physicist Dr. Vetra who believes that science is merely proving God's existence.
Having a bachelor's in Biological Sciences from a top-25 university (clemson), my personal belief is that the more science you learn, the more complex and yet somehow coincidental things are and the more that they point towards a creator

 

[rockskate4x]

then there is the priest/physicist Dr. Vetra who believes that science is merely proving God's existence.
Having a bachelor's in Biological Sciences from a top-25 university (clemson), my personal belief is that the more science you learn, the more complex and yet somehow coincidental things are and the more that they point towards a creator

AMEN!!! +1000

 

[WojTheElder]

my personal belief is that the more science you learn, the more complex and yet somehow coincidental things are and the more that they point towards a creator

Last night I had my first birthing class (for baby #1) and even though I was already familiar with the material, I walked out of the class with affirmation that we are carefully designed.  As someone with a good amount of technical education and systems engineering experience, I (personally) have nowhere else to go on the issue.  Even if I want to wander, my scientific curiosity pins me down.

 

[GoDrex]

Carefully designed? You're kidding right? If I bought myself at Sears I would have returned me a long time ago hahaha :laughing7:

btw - one thing I remember about my first son's birth is that if we weren't at or close to a hospital when he was ready come out, he and my wife would have surely died.  Some people are better designed than others I guess. Yeah that tiny gap in the pelvis that our huge heads have to squeeze through, is a brilliant design.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1cKD93W3yg

 

[nathan a]

Yeah that tiny gap in the pelvis that our huge heads have to squeeze through, is a brilliant design.

Agreed. True that our world and our bodies can do some amazing things, but they are not perfect. There are tons of examples of this-- bodies etc built to work and get the job done, but hardly ideal.

 

[JohninSC]

Yeah that tiny gap in the pelvis that our huge heads have to squeeze through, is a brilliant design.

Agreed. True that our world and our bodies can do some amazing things, but they are not perfect. There are tons of examples of this-- bodies etc built to work and get the job done, but hardly ideal.

Pobody's Nerfect

 

[exalted]

John, I'm curious. The teleological views you expressed before - has that lead you to theism, or to deism?

I didn't notice before, but the Bible quote in your signature is certainly an interesting pick.

 

[WojTheElder]

Carefully designed? You're kidding right? If I bought myself at Sears I would have returned me a long time ago hahaha :laughing7:

LOL! That is GREAT!  :laughing3:

Yeah, if I consider my own medical record (along with the fact that I managed to burn myself soldering some pots last weekend DESPITE the overwhelming awareness that allowing the super hot metal to touch any part of my soft skin would be BAD) I would not claim perfection in my personal design. So yes, there is a good amount of broken-ness in the universe, but I think the doctrinal explanation for such misery is well beyond the scope of this thread.

In summary ... I have played guitar at church.

 

[JohninSC]

John, I'm curious. The teleological views you expressed before - has that lead you to theism, or to deism?

I didn't notice before, but the Bible quote in your signature is certainly an interesting pick.

I'm a good ol' southern church boy, so that would be monotheism. Deism doesnt make sense, unless you want to believe in some sick bored god who sits back and watches us for entertainment purposes.

As for the quote in my signature...unlike a lot of people I spent time with in college, I have a sense of humor to go along with my  religious life. That is one of the many passages in the Bible that you read and say to yourself "what on earth is going on here?" I like it because it puts us in our place. Were not supposed to know everything that goes on with God, and thats where faith comes in.

 

[exalted]

You're absolutely right, John.

A lot of Christians pretend verses like that don't exist - even when asked directly about them. Nothing wrong with believing, if that's what you're going to do, but you should at least acknowledge what's written in your book!  :icon_thumright:

That's definitely one of the stranger verses I've come across, though.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

A lot of Christians pretend verses like that don't exist - even when asked directly about them.

Ezekiel 23:20 has always struck me as odd.