Binding at the nut or bad tuner ?

[Steve_Karl]

Hey there,

I've got a problem with the A string either binding at the nut or maybe a bad tuner. The tuners are Schaller Mini Locking.
This is on a new build and new neck from W. with W. installed Black TUSQ XL nut.

It will tune up and stay in tune until I dive a bit too far with the Wilki VS-100. No problems with any other strings that I can find as yet, but of course when the A goes sharp after a dive the others don't come back until I retune the A.

When turning the machine head and while watching the pitch of the A on my Peterson VS-1, I can turn the knob about 1/3 or a turn down, before the pitch of the A string changes. I can get the A intune by going below pitch and bringing it up, but when turning the gear down, it always takes from 1/4 to 1/3 or a turn for the pitch to move. SO, after removing some material from the nut, this is why I'm beginning to suspect the tuner.
Opinions on that possibility are very welcome.

Anyway ...
I've removed some material on the high side of the slot, the side closer to the D string, using a very small triangular file and a sliver of emery paper, and I've also dragged a piece of low E string through the slot a few times, back and forth, trying to widen the upper part of the slot. Unfortunately I don't have any nut files.
I also gave it a heavy dose of graphite but that made no difference.

I'm a bit reluctant to continue without some guidance since I really like the way the A string feels ( all of them actually ) and I don't want to make it sit lower than it is, and I'm also not wanting it to go off towards the E string by removing too much from that side of the slot.

Please have a look at the pics and please advise.

Thank you!

 

[chrisg]

From those pictures it doesn't look like the nut is a problem.  If an A string moves easily through the slot by hand (with a bit of tension on it), try some graphite lubricant in the nut slot.  If it still occurs you probably have a dodgy tuner.

 

[Cagey]

I'm not sure which headstock you've got there, but it looks like there's some side-load on some of the outside strings, so that might have something to do with it. For some reason, many players put a lot of undeserved weight on the "breaking angle" on strings at the bridge and nut. Contrary to popular opinion, this is not a Good Thing mechanically, particularly on guitars with a vibrato bridge.

Any place there's a severe angle on the string, you put a sort of "kink" in it, as strings are made of spring steel. If you try to move the string once that kink is created, it wants to relax back to that point. If you're dynamically changing the length of the string with a vibrato arm, this causes tension instability. That's why there's so much attention paid to bridges, nuts, string trees and tuners when designing those devices (or should be).

If you look at a Strat or Tele headstock, you'll see that it's a straight shot from the nut to the tuner - there's no side load on the strings, and only a slight vertical load. On older designs of that same headstock, there are sometimes "string trees" added to the upper register strings to increase the vertical load at the nut, but those are there more to allow for slop in the nut configuration than anything else. A properly cut nut of a low-friction material precludes the need for those, which add yet another kink in the string and cause tuning instability.

Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do about your headstock design other than choose a good one in the first place, unless you want to change your neck altogether.

Another issue, though, and one you allude to, is gear backlash in the tuning machines. This is particularly severe in old "vintage" style tuners such as the "Kluson" design. Some people insist on using those things for appearance's sake, as though it's some sort of "badge of authenticity" to use a mechanically inferior design. It's akin to using an ice box in an age where phase change cooling such as is used in modern "refrigerators" is widespread. As one might say about many/most Hollywood actresses: "Cute, but stupid". Not that appearance doesn't count, but using such crap is the equivalent of a "tramp stamp" in that it conveys an obvious message about your understanding of How Things Work.

Anyway, I'm making a short story long. If you're using locking tuners, I think you have a defective one. Too much backlash, which is unusual in something like a Schaller/Sperzel/PlanetWaves tuner, and since they're sealed I don't think there's anything you can do about it outside of replacing it. Fortunately, they make them by the bajillion, so they're only $10-$12 apiece at retail.

 

[Steve_Karl]

I'm not sure which headstock you've got there,


<snip>

Anyway, I'm making a short story long. If you're using locking tuners, I think you have a defective one. Too much backlash, which is unusual in something like a Schaller/Sperzel/PlanetWaves tuner, and since they're sealed I don't think there's anything you can do about it outside of replacing it. Fortunately, they make them by the bajillion, so they're only $10-$12 apiece at retail.

Thanks Cagey and also chrisg for replying.

It's a normal strat headstock and no string trees .... but a 1-3/4" nut width.

You might be seeing the side load because the pics of the slot are so magnified. Looking straight down on it in the case, right now, they look like a straight shot, and if anything the outer strings are straighter than the D and G.

So I think I'll swap the E and A tuners and see if the problem moves with the swap.

I'll be back as soon as I have some news.

 

[tfarny]

Nut looks good to me, but the problem is almost always the nut, so I'd try lubing it up with pencil lead really good before swapping E and A tuners to see if it's the tuner.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Thanks tfarny. I did lube it heavily before I started messing with the slot but .........

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggg ........

I swapped the tuners and then at the last minute thought what cagey said .... backlash ... backlash .... hummmm ... and then though to check the tension screw.

It seems that it was the adjustment screw, in the center of the knob, being loose that was causing the problem.
I tightened it up and all seems good now.

I've never noticed those screws have any effect other than the tightness of the knob on any other set of tuners.
I had no idea they actually controlled the accuracy of the tuner. Maybe it's just on these Schaller mini locking ?

Luckily I didn't screw up the functionality of the nut slot.

 

[Cagey]

Not to rejoice in your hardship at all, but I'm glad that's what it turned out to be. You used good parts in a good design, so the diagnosis was correct and easily confirmed, and the problem is correctable. So many problems aren't that it can be depressing.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Cagey ....

You must have seen my inaccurate reply when I thought it was a "bad" tuner as opposed to a poorly adjusted tuner.

Thanks man.
You nailed it with the term "backlash" which stimulated my thought about the adjustment screws.

 

[Cagey]

Yeah, we were a little out of sync posting. I tend to start a post and then spend a lot of time editing and making sure it's right before I commit it, so I miss what gets said in the meantime <grin>

I'm glad that this has worked out for you. There are few things quite as frustrating as tuning problems. I mean, if you can't trust your tools, whaddaya gonna do? It not only makes it tough to progress, you can actually regress.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Yea I hear ya on trusting the tools and the tuning, and it's one of the reasons why I have such a love / hate relationship with guitars and why I always need to have a hard tail.
But even with the hard tail, I can change the pitch by just by leaning forward or leaning back in my chair.
Maybe it's that it's a standard thin neck, but really ... just gravity and the angle against the ground ?
That's a recipe for madness if one gets too picky !

Anyway, my next hard tail is gonna be a fatback just to see if that makes it more gravity resistant.  

I'm into the fine tuning of the claw springs now and getting really close to done. I'm gonna graphite all the nut slots and let it sit for a few hours to settle and then tweak it some more.

 

[Cagey]

The gravity thing is a real phenomena. Stew-Mac's fiddle-holder-jig-thingy is specifically designed to eliminate the effect so that when you do fret leveling, neck relief adjustments and so forth, you don't let 'er get on top.

But, in real life, I'm not sure there's much you can do about it. Besides, you're always changing tension on the neck just by handling/playing it, and I'm not aware of any way to mitigate that. A thicker neck might help, but we're only talking very small fractions of an inch difference. I'm not sure it's worth it. Comfort is more important, in my opinion.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Interesting stewmac rig!

Yea. I agree that comfort is the priority. My latest ... the one I just finished is a ' 59 round back and it fells very natural. I haven't played it as much as my old stand by which is a standard thin 1-3/4" nut width, which sometimes gives me a bit of stress where it hits the joint of my first finger where it joins the palm.
I think the ' 59  is not doing that because my thumb has more to rest on and a fat back is so little difference thicker than a ' 59 I think I can handle it.

Now my oldest guitar, a G&L f-100 has a 1-5/8" nut width and is maple on maple, but is slightly thicker than the standard thin, but that guitar makes my hand really tired and stressed out quickly. It might be the drag of the maple fretboard, even though I scraped it raw. I've never been sure.

The gravity pitch shift is really minimal and really only noticeable to me on a tuner, never a problem with recordings, but I agree comfort is the priority.

 

[Alfang]

glad you figured it out, as I started to read this I was gonna say, I thought your nut slots looked good, and prior to blaming the tuners was gonna ask how many wraps arround the tunning post do you have. Over wrapped can cause a huge de-tuning proplem as those wraps loosen when dive bombing, or even moderate trem use.

Nice close up pics by the way, very impressive. those are hard to get.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Thanks on the close ups Alfang.
It's Canon A2000IS digital. It's a decent camera and the "Marco" mode is what makes those close shots possible.

I've only got about a 1/4 and always less than 1/2 of a wrap with these locking tuners. That's a nice perk for the locking. I just need to find a rubber wrench or small cap snaffeler so I don't have to use my leather work gloves when tightening the knob in the back. They really put a hurtin' on my fingers without gloves. 

 

[bagman67]

I have nothing more to offer except to say, "That's shore a purty gee-tar, Steve_Karl."

That is all.  Carry on.

Bagman

 

[Steve_Karl]

Thanks Bagman!

I like it more each day.

Steve

 

[Graffiti62]

The gravity thing is a real phenomena. Stew-Mac's fiddle-holder-jig-thingy is specifically designed to eliminate the effect so that when you do fret leveling, neck relief adjustments and so forth, you don't let 'er get on top.

But, in real life, I'm not sure there's much you can do about it. Besides, you're always changing tension on the neck just by handling/playing it, and I'm not aware of any way to mitigate that. A thicker neck might help, but we're only talking very small fractions of an inch difference. I'm not sure it's worth it. Comfort is more important, in my opinion.

I can definitely see that a thicker neck would be more resiliant to the effect of string tension/gravity having an adverse effect on the neck, but at the same time, there are so many factors that can make or break anything on our guitars. I picked up one of my acoustic guitars last night and, I think thanks in part to the inches of powdery snow the Upper Peninsula received over the past couple of nights, I had just the smallest hint of buzz on my D string. Granted, it needs new strings anyway, but it may be the time of the year for the seasonal truss rod tweak. On my build (which the due date feels farther and farther away every time my wife gives me my budget for two weeks), I have a Pro neck with a fatback contour. There may be some very minor tweaks that may have to be made, but there's the combination of the extra wood and the hardware that may add to some resiliancy, which, especially in the upper midwest, I'm gonna need.

Also, on an unrelated note, after looking at that jig, I have a feeling that Dan Erlewine and Andrew Dyson may indeed be related, mainly due to the fact that you don't realize you have a problem, until one of them brings out something new, and makes the way we've been doing it forever seem flawed and inadequate.

 

[chrisg]

I'm pleased it was a simple fix.  Something to store away in the meory banks.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Yes ... for sure.
Who'd'athunk that an adjustment screw could be loose without the knob feeling loose also.