Best route for Floyd with DTuna?

[Cagey]

I don't ever see anything like that happening.  Bigsby is still making their original B5/B7 designs in Kalamazoo, MI, but it's a very labor-intensive process at American wages, so I don't know how much longer that'll last. They actually sand-cast the things, then grind/polish them to finish and use ball bearings in the hinges. Most Bigsbys you see now are the B50/B70s and B500/B700s made overseas, and they just die-cast parts that use bushings in place of bearings so performance-wise they're even worse.

But, much as I don't care for their performance, I'm seriously considering putting one on my L5S build just for appearance's sake. Won't use it, of course, but it would be pretty and would cover up a lot of the oversized ass on that body design. Because, you gotta admit, functional or not, that's a pretty piece of hardware.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

If we could all just have a Gretch White Falcon or Brian Setzer that would stay in tune!

 

[Strat Avenger]

Not to change the subject, but do any of you (older) guys remember the Washburn "Wonderbar"? That system worked great. I have no idea why they discontinued it. I know a guy who put one on his ES-335 back in the '80s, and is still using it to this day.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Had lots of parts, the metal quality wasn't great if memory serves, die cast zinc possibly, was also rather bulky, some cases would close easily with it on there.

 

[line6man]

Some complain that it makes the wang bar tighter, but I don't know how that could be. If there's a 110 pound pull on the strings, there needs to be a corresponding 110 pound pull on the springs, or the bridge won't float. 1 spring, 10 springs, it doesn't matter. It's a balancing act. You can't have one side pull harder than the other unless you're one of those who's set up the bridge to bang into the body so it's in "dive only" mode.

You need an equal amount of pull from both sides to float, but that's just at the neutral position. It can take more or less force to overcome the string tension to adjust the pitch, depending on how many springs are pulling and how far they are being pulled.

 

[Dan025]

I use 4 springs with my trems, they don't move as much in free floating mode that way, they stay in tune better.

That's been my experience as well. You also get a more reliable return to neutral.

Some complain that it makes the wang bar tighter, but I don't know how that could be. If there's a 110 pound pull on the strings, there needs to be a corresponding 110 pound pull on the springs, or the bridge won't float. 1 spring, 10 springs, it doesn't matter. It's a balancing act. You can't have one side pull harder than the other unless you're one of those who's set up the bridge to bang into the body so it's in "dive only" mode.

And if you want to see how unreliable a return to neutral can be, get yourself a Jaguar/Jazzmaster vibrato tailpiece, or a Bigsby. They only have ONE spring. Tune one of those bitches up and if you're sensitive to tuning, you better not touch that wang bar.

that's the difference between rate and pressure/preload. with higher rate the change in position give a higher change in pressure, this is also why more springs return better. this extra stiffness isn't a big deal for a little vibrato but for full dive bombs it feels way different. try 5 springs on a vintage fender wang bar and see how long it takes to snap that thing off.

in my experience 4 springs is as much as you ever need, 5 is too much and 2 is not enough.

^^^edit, damn i type too slow... what joey said.  :doh:

 

[Cagey]

Some complain that it makes the wang bar tighter, but I don't know how that could be. If there's a 110 pound pull on the strings, there needs to be a corresponding 110 pound pull on the springs, or the bridge won't float. 1 spring, 10 springs, it doesn't matter. It's a balancing act. You can't have one side pull harder than the other unless you're one of those who's set up the bridge to bang into the body so it's in "dive only" mode.

You need an equal amount of pull from both sides to float, but that's just at the neutral position. It can take more or less force to overcome the string tension to adjust the pitch, depending on how many springs are pulling and how far they are being pulled.

You may be right. I started on a project back 6 or 8 months ago to measure the effect different springs had on the vibrato, but haven't followed through with it yet. Built a test fixture and made it partway through, but other projects got in the way. Gotta finish that, then we'll know some things.

 

[Cagey]

...that's the difference between rate and pressure/preload. with higher rate the change in position give a higher change in pressure, this is also why more springs return better. this extra stiffness isn't a big deal for a little vibrato but for full dive bombs it feels way different. try 5 springs on a vintage fender wang bar and see how long it takes to snap that thing off. 

Yeah, that was one of the things my test was going to prove out. One of the members here bought a set of springs that he thought were magical (and had to pay a magical price for them), which I called "shenanigans" on. So, he bought the same set and sent them to me so I could experience them for myself. That's when I decided to do a fixture test so as to eliminate any subjective data. Gimme real numbers, and I'll be a believer.

Winter's coming on here in the Great White North, so maybe I'll finally get to finish that.

 

[Dan025]

I use 4 springs with my trems, they don't move as much in free floating mode that way, they stay in tune better.

That's been my experience as well. You also get a more reliable return to neutral.

Some complain that it makes the wang bar tighter, but I don't know how that could be. If there's a 110 pound pull on the strings, there needs to be a corresponding 110 pound pull on the springs, or the bridge won't float. 1 spring, 10 springs, it doesn't matter. It's a balancing act. You can't have one side pull harder than the other unless you're one of those who's set up the bridge to bang into the body so it's in "dive only" mode.

And if you want to see how unreliable a return to neutral can be, get yourself a Jaguar/Jazzmaster vibrato tailpiece, or a Bigsby. They only have ONE spring. Tune one of those bitches up and if you're sensitive to tuning, you better not touch that wang bar.

So true, and most guitars that utilize a Bigsby have a headstock without a straight string pull.  If you had a guitar with a straight string pull, locking tuners, and roller saddles, you might with the grace of God get it to stay somewhat in tune.  Perhaps Bigsby should consider applying the Trem-setter principle to the inner workings of their trem.  Maybe if the Bigsby had the "Double-Hinge" principle applied to it, it just might work.  The gear housing that currently makes it up could have the spring loaded with tension in one direction, and the opposite housing with the tension in the other direction.  Just a thought, but even then, the "detent" would make noise, especially in a hollow bodied guitar.

you don't need springs loaded in both directions. the strings provide the return in one direction. you could just have a method to tie the one spring down. like add a telescoping stop device to the center of the spring that holds it down to a point just a tad tighter than the strings would normally pull it and let the bar rest on top of that device. when you push down it still compresses, when you pull up the bar lifts off the spring entirely.

you could also have a stop over the spring that had only and adjustment, no telescoping action but the spring adjuster at the top could cover only 50% of the top coil in a cross or 3 point patern. then the bar could have fingers that extend down through the open points on the adjuster and compress the spring that way.

these would be simple designs but the catch is they need more length to get the same bar travel so the arm needs to be reworked and it would look funky unless you added a hole into the top of the guitar for a telescoping rod to sink down into or a recess for the spring..

you could also employ the principle with a torsion spring either inside the rear bar or in the casting that holds the bar. the traditional spring on top could either be eliminated for a cleaner look, or left in place for a classic look.

the important part is to have a spring that had a pre determined amount of pressure or tension held on it with a rigid stop, it can't be allowed to fully relax and the stop cant prevent compression of the spring or travel of the bar in the other direction. but with a bigsby we are way off the topic of a d-tuna. so uhmmm yeah...

 

[Dan025]

...that's the difference between rate and pressure/preload. with higher rate the change in position give a higher change in pressure, this is also why more springs return better. this extra stiffness isn't a big deal for a little vibrato but for full dive bombs it feels way different. try 5 springs on a vintage fender wang bar and see how long it takes to snap that thing off. 

Yeah, that was one of the things my test was going to prove out. One of the members here bought a set of springs that he thought were magical (and had to pay a magical price for them), which I called "shenanigans" on. So, he bought the same set and sent them to me so I could experience them for myself. That's when I decided to do a fixture test so as to eliminate any subjective data. Gimme real numbers, and I'll be a believer.

Winter's coming on here in the Great White North, so maybe I'll finally get to finish that.

run the numbers.

just come up with two spring rates and lengths off the top of your head and pull them against each other by a distance or tension you come up with, assume equilibrium and figure from the model the length of each spring. then keep the same total length and make one shorter and one longer like it's infulenced by an outside force and calculate the tension of each in the new model, then influence the length in the other direction and again check the tension of each spring.

now change the lb/in of one spring and not the other and run the model again so that the unchanged spring (representing the strings) ends up at the same length and therefore tension. now infulence the length as you did with the first pair of springs.

it will show that the rate/number of the springs is important to heavy trem use (not so much vibrato but definately dive bombs). the string gage is also a factor to feel. stiffer strings feel stiffer and stiffer springs feel stiffer in both directions. for a softer feel you need fewer springs stretched longer or lighter strings so even with light strings 3+ springs is still benificial to stability. the length of the block also works into that so an extra spring may be wanted on a thin body or any guitar that has a shorter block. remember that's as it relates to feel of a dive bomb, stability for bends may prefer lighter strings with more springs since when you bend the rate of the string is also working to pull you out of tune.

so if your floater doesn't return to zero after dives, and i've been there, add a spring, maybe two, and move up to .010's with a heavier bottom but not on a zinc or brass cast bridge, you'll damage the knife edge and maybe pull the threads on the saddle tie down screw. which i've also done (twice). brass floyds may sound good but use lighter strings (any number of springs, it's the strings that influence the static tension).

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Finally, someone who speaks English!